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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to hate these things about England vs Italy?

485 replies

ItalianPoster · 06/09/2018 21:56

As an Italian who has spent the last decade in England, I have grown fond of the country, but there are also a few bugbears which totally drive me nuts. Clearly a light-hearted rant, not a profound economic, sociological and anthropological analysis!

  1.  No bidet. I. Will. Never. Get. It. You don’t clean your hands, or a baby’s bottom, with a dry towel, right? You wash the parts! Ideally with water, or at the very least with a wet wipe. Why should an adult’s bottom be any different?
    
  2. No ID cards. I will never get it. You are opposed to ID cards because you don't want a compulsory document but you have made the passport practically compulsory. Don't say you don't need a passport - Windrush proved you wrong. Note that a system of ID cards, like in most of the civilised - and developing - world, would have avoided the Windrush scandal.

  3.  Leasehold. The middle ages are over. Ius primae noctis has been abolished. Why does leasehold persist?
    
  4.  Carpets. I understand them in offices. I understand them in flats with no noise insulation. But in houses? Whether you like them or not is subjective. That they are filthy and almost impossible to clean effectively, compared to wooden or tile floors, is not – that’s a fact.
    
  5.  Separate hot and cold faucets. Why, oh, please someone explain why!
    
  6.  Rodents. No, they are neither normal nor harmless. They carry diseases. In many continental European countries, having rodents is shameful and dealt with swiftly – here they are just accepted passively. Councils don’t seem to conduct periodic exterminations like abroad, and most homeowners seem happy living in properties full of rodent-friendly holes, or just accept with a shrug that, when a house is being refurbished, mice will move to the neighbours!
    
  7.  State schools. Admission by distance, ie by whether you can afford to live close enough. Faith schools funded by the State! It would be outrageous to have hospitals for Christians only but funded by all taxpayers, yet this is what happens with State schools.
    
  8.  School uniforms. Why are you so obsessed with them? While they might have some merit, the obsession with which some schools apply their dress codes is shocking. Every September there are stories about repressed,  control-freak headteachers who check whether pupils are wearing the right shade of grey etc.
    
  9.  Construction standards. Even without bringing up the Greenfell tragedy, construction standards are incredibly low compared to continental Europe. Is there maybe a tax for building stuff straight, not crooked, and for sealing holes? I had never seen crooked angles or ceilings in Italy, Germany or Spain – here they seem to be the norm. And doors? Why do your doors almost never seal the entrance properly? Having an energy performance certificate which looks at whether there any energy-saving light bulbs, but ignores that the front door is all bent and allows lots of draught in, makes no sense at all! Ancient Greece used to build straight stuff - why can't modern England, too?
    

On the plus side:

  1. English mother-in-laws don't seem as overbearing as the Italian ones. Extended families are, in general, less "suffocating". Italian families tend to give more financial support, but that support tends to come with huuuuge strings attached. English kids are brought up to be independent, unlike their Italian cousins.

  2. Work. There's much more of it, and the country is incredibly more open and meritocratic. In Italy, you'll struggle to find non-white non-Italians who have progressed in their career and are heading teams of white Italians. Not here. Foreigners for very high-profile jobs (Carney)? Forget it.

  3. There is no concept of "concorso", these huge, theoretical exams which are needed to hire people in the civil service, and which, idiotically, totally disregard soft skills. A job "concorso" typically involves thousands of applicants locked in a huge gym answering mostly irrelevant and theoretical written questions.

  4. The immigration bureaucracy is shameful (Windrush), but, in general, English bureaucracy is miles ahead the Italian one (I know, it doesn't take much!). Receiving a new driving licence, for free, in a few days, or receiving a tax refund 3 days after filing your tax return are unthinkable and cause the envy of our friends in Italy.

  5. Green spaces and kids' activities. At least in London, there are so many, mostly well-kept gardens, parks, green spaces and play grounds; the difference with the large Italian cities is shocking.

  6. Free motorways. Privatised railways have been an utter failure (Govia/Southern Fail), but at least you didn't privatise the motorways and gave too good a deal to a bunch of well-connected local entrepreneurs like we did (by the way, the fact they are the key investors in the Italian motorways is one reason why I never buy Benetton).

OP posts:
stopfuckingshoutingatme · 07/09/2018 14:08

in Sicily and every evening a woman in an apartment opposite my balcony beats seven shades of shit out of a small child. It is heartbreaking to listen to. Do any of you Italian folk know if I could report it to

I also am interested in this . From a child protection aspect I am also slightly surprised how this seems to be handled in the community

There does seem to be a ‘walk by - don’t speak up’ culture - I am also Sicily based

Personally I would get details and report to police as a starter for 10

But it fascinated me how some issues get brushed over . It’s like ‘yeah it’s shit . Don’t want to talk about it . Boh’

UrsulaPandress · 07/09/2018 14:10

I've just been to my second loo of the day in a cafe. No light. No toilet seat. No soap. No water. Thanks Sicily.

ItalianPoster · 07/09/2018 14:11

@ThenCameTheFools, these hypothetical people are in a very similar predicament to the very real situations of some Windrush people.

Also, what documents are you talking about? Passports? But they're not compulsory - after all Brits hate the idea of a compulsory document. Their great-grandparents' documents? Meaning they'd have to hope the government hasn't destroyed those records?

And many European will also be in similar situations: there will be lots of kids born here from legally settled Europeans. In theory the kids are British, but you need to prove the legally settled status of the parents. Do you have all the documentation to prove work address taxes etc going back 15 years? I don't...

OP posts:
JellyBears · 07/09/2018 14:14

Feel free to leave then!! I cannot abide people moving to country’s and the bitching about how awful said country is.

ItalianPoster · 07/09/2018 14:17

@Stop, if you're really worried it's child abuse, you should report it to the polizia or carabinieri. But I recommend you first speak to Telefono Azzurro, www.azzurro.it/ , Italy's largest charity against child abuse: they can help you navigate Italian bureaucracy; you also want to make sure the report is not brushed off as "some * some foreigner said" - they should be able to help with that.

However, and I know I am going to get a lot of heat for it, are you really sure it was seven shades? I say that because in Italian airports I have seen foreigners being absolutely horrified at the sight of.... a parent giving a very slight smack on the bottom of children who were behaving like devils and, most of all, were endangering themselves and others. Cultural differences can have a huge role in interpreting or misinterpreting the severity of a smack.

OP posts:
ThenCameTheFools · 07/09/2018 14:18

Of course I do! Particularly living in the world capital of mad bureaucracy.

As an immigrant, I have all documents pertaining to my immigration status here. I considered them to be a bit important. Like the govt office does.

Of course the Windrush thing is appalling- but it is an appalling thing that has happened to a minority of people. Doesn't make it right, and I hope the govt is righting their wrong. But it's got fuck all to do with me having to show some 5 euro ID card to a hotel receptionist. And you know it, so give over.

buttermilkwaffles · 07/09/2018 14:18

If this is what Italians do in a country that is hosting them, it says something about your manners.

"Hosting them"? They are not a guest, they have lived here for over a decade and have every right to do so. Nothing wrong with making observations and comparisons about the country you live in - I find it interesting to read. It's only one persons opinion and I may not agree with all of it, but some people seem to take it as a personal insult.

You seem to be saying that nobody should say anything critical about the country they live in just because they were not born here - reminds me of the people whose stock response to any negative or critical opinion I dare to voice about something in the UK is to tell me "well then why don't you fuck off back to where you came from if you don't like it here?" - their attitude seems to be that even though I have lived here for nearly 30 years I can only ever say positive things about this country and if I have any negative comments or opinions I should leave!

ItalianPoster · 07/09/2018 14:20

"Feel free to leave then!! I cannot abide people moving to country’s and the bitching about how awful said country is."

yes, I knew some open-minded genius would come up with this, even though I never said nor implied that England is in any way awful. I have explained myself multiple times; if you can't stand the thought of foreigners who dare criticise some aspects of your country, while at the same time explaining what they love about it, why they've grown fond of it and why they have decided to stay here, well, that's really sad...

OP posts:
ThenCameTheFools · 07/09/2018 14:20

"However, and I know I am going to get a lot of heat for it, are you really sure it was seven shades? I say that because in Italian airports I have seen foreigners being absolutely horrified at the sight of.... a parent giving a very slight smack on the bottom of children who were behaving like devils and, most of all, were endangering themselves and others. Cultural differences can have a huge role in interpreting or misinterpreting the severity of a smack."

I don't think you'll get heat for it.

I hope you'll be ignored for the coawrdly namechanging goady fucker you clearly are.

Racecardriver · 07/09/2018 14:20

@italianposter I am looking at my drivers license right now. It says Australian on it. My children's birth certificates how both my husbands and my nationality on them as well as where we were born, our jobs etc. We do have the longer version ones though. Not sure about the shirt ones. My doctors know my nationality, it's on my NHS file, the school has a record of my nationality, so dies my uk University. The paper trail is a mile long.

TooMuchPenis · 07/09/2018 14:20

No idea about Italy but literally everything else you say about England is 100% right. I'd think you were me except for the Italian part.

ItalianPoster · 07/09/2018 14:22

You having to show some 5 euro ID card to a hotel receptionist has a lot to do with the terrorism of the '70s. Ever heard of the years of lead, the Red Brigades, etc? It was important to make life difficult for terrorists trying to hide.

OP posts:
JellyBears · 07/09/2018 14:22

I am no genius just rolling my eyes at yet another arrogant European moving here then bitching about how awful it is.

IrmaFayLear · 07/09/2018 14:23

Don’t like school uniforms? Have you ever heard Italian teenage girls deciding what to wear for school? They are dreadful . And obsessed with having the “right” clothes. Ever seen a charity shop in Italy? Or a Primark-type shop? No, Italians don’t do, “Oh, this old thing? I’ve had it years!”

Rents have been historically low (and house prices cheap) in Italy and every penny saved there gets spent on throwing more clothes on their backs. One year I remember seeing an entire family (ordinary, not rich) decked out in extremely expensive shearling jackets. The next year they were all in different jackets. It would have been social death to sport last year’s must-have item.

Luckily so different from UK where I am not judged for wearing elderly garments (er, at least I hope i’m not!) and your average teen is thrilled with a Primark haul.

ThenCameTheFools · 07/09/2018 14:23

Haha, by asking people to show, and I quote from my days at the Home Offic "the most widely forged and easiest to forge" piece of paper in the world?

That worked didn't it.

ItalianPoster · 07/09/2018 14:24

"I hope you'll be ignored for the coawrdly namechanging goady fucker you clearly are." Ah, the beauty of well-mannered, polite and constructive debate!

I was going to ask for a definite answer to how citizenship is proven in my example, but it's clear you don't have an answer.

OP posts:
SoyDora · 07/09/2018 14:24

Feel free to leave then!! I cannot abide people moving to country’s and the bitching about how awful said country

When I lived in France, Spain and Italy I certainly moaned about certain aspects of living there! Admittedly never on a forum predominantly frequented by people of that nationality though Grin

gamerwidow · 07/09/2018 14:27

I see where you’re coming from on most your post OP but seriously who have you been hanging out with where rodents are ok to just put up with. I think 99% of Britons would not share a house willingly with them and would get the exterminators in immediately if they spotted one.
People always get defensive on these types of threads anyone would think Britain is a utopian wonderworld that the natives never have a good whinge about.

ItalianPoster · 07/09/2018 14:27

"by asking people to show, and I quote from my days at the Home Offic "the most widely forged and easiest to forge" piece of paper in the world? "

I am not saying it's the best strategy in the world; I was just giving some context. Italian ID cards are shameful and easy to forge, you're absolutely right. Credit-sized ID cards have been on "trial" for at least 15 years and only now are they starting to actually become widespread. There is no possible justification for that.

OP posts:
piscis · 07/09/2018 14:27

piscis, the people who work in nationality use your birth certificate (and the registry of births etc) to establish citizenship

Can you elaborate as I do not see how this is the case...

Every baby who is born in the UK will get a birth certificate, but that doesn't mean that the baby is british, it means that it was born in the UK (not the same). The baby will be british only if their (foreigner) parents have been living in the UK for longer than 5 years and can prove it.

In other words, my DD is british because I have been here long enough and I could prove it. I know other women that have given birth here and live here, they've got a birth certificate for their babies too, same as mine, but their babies haven't got the right to be british because they haven't been here long enough.

TooMuchPenis · 07/09/2018 14:28

I am no genius just rolling my eyes at yet another arrogant European moving here then bitching about how awful it is.

Just rolling my eyes at another boring racist on Mn. I know it's hard to believe but actually, we live here and are allowed an opinion. Quite often, we don't even want to live here but because of family etc have to. Some of us even married English people, gasp, what a thought. I'm sure you're married to a local cousin or something but some of us did go further afield.

The ironic thing Op is that I couple post a thousand links that basically just slag other countries off, but that's different because reasons.

scaryteacher · 07/09/2018 14:28

Do you have all the documentation to prove work address taxes etc going back 15 years? I don't... HMRC does for me and my dh though, given that he was employed by HMG, and they pay his Forces pension.

Even with ID cards, there is a problem - look at Molenbeek in Brussels. The mayor has been onrecord as saying they don't know who is there - but this is not supposed to happen with ID cards.

ID cards can also be produced fraudulently.
See here freedomfakes.is/belgian-identity-card-insufficiently-secured/
www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2015/10/20/police_swoop_on_fakeidworkshopinbrussels-1-2473583/

IrmaFayLear · 07/09/2018 14:31

I think ID cards are a good idea. The reason a lot of ne’er do wells want to reach the UK is that they can “disappear” which is more difficult in Europe.

Plus, in my younger days, suitors (I sound like i’m from Jane Austen times!) would be happy to whip out their ID cards to demonstrate that they were “celibe” (I was “nubile” !!) .

Kewqueue · 07/09/2018 14:31

harvester- there is a uniform of kind at nursery and elementary school- a sort of cover-all smock thing which definitely has to be adhered to.

Not where I live. In fact, a lot of the comments on here (both about Italy and the UK) really only apply to certain parts of the country.

Feel free to leave then!! I cannot abide people moving to country’s and the bitching about how awful said country is.

Wow, if you don't like discussing, just scroll on by. Nobody is bitching and I hate the attitude that foreigners can't ever criticize the country they live in - and I find that at the same time, people who do this tend to criticize foreigners for not integrating enough. What's more British than having a bit of a whinge?

TooMuchPenis · 07/09/2018 14:31

Feel free to leave then!! I cannot abide people moving to country’s and the bitching about how awful said country is.

yeah, go back where you came from Op.

I'm loving this new brexit Britain where open racism is OK because someone hates mixer taps.