To think a rapist shouldn't be in a women's prision to start with?

[MipMipMip]

A rapist has now admitted to assaulting female prisoners while in a women's prision. (This individual is in prision for rape but the assaults on prisoners do not appear to have been rape. Assuming all have come forward. )

But there is a large part of me that think this is down almost entirely to the people who put him there. Don't get me wrong - I blame the rapist. But it is clear that they are opportunistic. So while you wouldn't be surprised if someone went in a tigers cage and got eaten, you shouldn't be surprised that a rapist going into a women's prision assaults women.

These assaults were wholly avoidable. AIBU to think the people who enabled the rapist should be held partially responsible?

*for clarity: as MNHQ do not allow a person to be misgendered and this individual identifies as trans I have not used male pronouns. I hope that this does not prevent clear discussion.

MyDoctor - they "didn't know" that someone who

• "pleaded guilty at Leeds Crown Court to the historic rape of a woman in August 2003, when she was then called Stephen Wood."
• "also pleaded guilty at the same court to two counts of raping another woman between February and December 2016."

...might in fact be a risk to women? Honestly? That is what you 're seriously saying? That the judicial/prison service is so outrageously unfit for purpose it can't join the dots that are there in huge neon flashing red flagged letters...?

Hells teeth.

The authorities didn't know this was going to happen, and acted accordingly afterwards.

Do you know what the word 'safeguarding' means? It doesn't mean 'wait for it to happen and then act accordingly'. I would say that someone who is on remand for rape and has a other sexual offence convictions would be a bit of a red flag for going into a women's prison? Are you saying the authorities could have not foreseen it at all?

And you still haven't answered why Karen White should ever have been allowed in there anyway.

I think it would have been reasonable to conclude that it was likely to happen.

"In 2003, Karen White used that penis to commit rape. In 2016, Karen White used that penis to commit rape again. Twice. As a result, Karen White was last year remanded in prison awaiting trial for rape. It wasn’t Karen White’s first time behind bars. In 2001, Karen White was jailed for 18 months for an act of gross indecency with a child."

(from: blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/09/why-was-a-transgender-rapist-put-in-a-womens-prison/ )

I want to know more about the Transgender Case Board - who are they & what guidance are they acting on?

I also never want to read the phrase 'her penis' again.

If you care more about punishing perpetrators of crime than protecting potential victims - ask yourself what punishment is it to be shut in with a whole bunch of your preferred victim type who can't escape from you.

Sickening that anyone could possibly defend this.

"The authorities didn't know this was going to happen, and acted accordingly afterwards. I agree that she is now being punished by being in a male prison, but hindsight is a lovely thing."

Your view is that moving this person to a male prison is a "punishment" for them?

they are not being punished by moving them.

So essentially you see this person as a woman, and this woman did somethign wrong in prison, so as punishment she has been locked in with a load of men?

Is that right?

(By your own logic that's fine as she is a criminal and so deserves what happens to her anyway, but that's a separate point).

I'd be interested in your answers to ALL the other questions that have been asked, please.

How do you feel about the high rates of self harm and suicide in young offenders?
What crime is a step too far for you - rape is bad but only what they deserve apparently, what about torture, murder?
Is it your blanket view that any woman victim of something that is a crime outside of prison, should not be counted as a crime when they are inside prison?
There were more I'm sure you can scroll back and read :)

She was allowed to go to a women's prison because she identified as a woman and was undergoing gender reassignment.

The idea that this person is being "punished" by moving them to a male prison

Is so arse about face I don't even know where to start with it.

You see this person as a woman and believe that she is beign punished by locking her in with the men
Simialrly you see it as reasonabel to punish female prisoners by locking them in with violent sex offenders with dicks

You're very old testament aren't you. In the punishment area at least. I think they were more clued up on the whole dicky / cunty thing in those days though.

Try again.

Answer the questions.

This is the trans activist approach which says that women must have anyone who says "I'm a woman" or even "I'm non binary" in with them

And WHEN something illegal happens, THEN they can try to get something done about it (but only with the individual who committed the crime).

Fuck that.

is there still tumbleweed from the labour's women's officer who claimed that the victims couldn't be telling the truth because this was all part of a transphobic smear?

How about from Natasha Devon who took a similar line & is coming to a school near you soon?

She was allowed to go to a women's prison because she identified as a woman and was undergoing gender reassignment.

But given prison is a punishment and the female inmates should have to suck up any assaults, why should Karen have had the choice to be allowed to do that? Why should Karen's desire be met in that way. Karen is a male who had used their penis to rape someone.

Do you think it's right that Karen should have been allowed to go to a woman's prison?

mydoctor

Don't you think using the pronoun she is unreasonable when you read in a post upthread a description of how this rapist approached one of the assaulted prisoners

her penis was poking above the waistband ofher tracksuit trousers

Women don't have penises.

I think we could start with the first basic principle that a conviction for a sex offence should immediately trigger a lifetime bar to getting a gender recognition certificate. That would have weeded out Karen, for a start. (I am assuming that Karen had a GRC in order to be able to apply to be housed in the female estate? That should be the absolute minimum, again. If Karen did not, dear god, this is a worse mess than at first sight).

If this was implemented, it should have absolutely no impact at all on your average, law abiding, dysphoric trans person, who can then freely distance themselves from being associated with rapists like Karen. Surely win-win for everyone?

How do you feel about the high rates of self harm and suicide in young offenders?
That's sad, but my sympathy is with their victims.

What crime is a step too far for you - rape is bad but only what they deserve apparently, what about torture, murder?
I'd prefer there to be no violence in prisons, but it's just a fact of life. Policemen use it as a bargaining chip to squeeze suspects with.

Is it your blanket view that any woman victim of something that is a crime outside of prison, should not be counted as a crime when they are inside prison?
Not sure I follow the question, but as I said before, if you don't want to get attacked in prison, then don't break the law.

So women in prison deserve everything they get because they’re bad, bad people.

Whereas men identifying as women in prison deserve to get what they ask for because why? Because they’re not as bad?

Not following your logic MyDoctor. (Even if I accepted your first premise, which I don’t, why does it not apply to men identifying as women?)

And tumbleweed from the activists who argue that no trans prisoners should be held in the prison estate at all?

NB: Under (Prison Service Instructions) PSI 17/2016 (effective from Jan 2017) prisoners can assert that they are living as a woman' and be awarded access to female prison estate. If they begun the process of applying for a GRC, there is a presumed right of transfer to women's estate.

The recommendations and considerations are available: there is a remarkable amount of concern (as there should be) for the welfare of trans individuals but staggeringly little written about the welfare or perspective of women in the women's estate where prisoners might be transferred.

PSI 17/2016 can be downloaded from this list: www.justice.gov.uk/offenders/psis/prison-service-instructions-2016

Notionally, yes, transmen could apply to be held in male estate. So far, this hasn't happened with some prisoners being diverted to specialist estate instead.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/09/why-was-a-transgender-rapist-put-in-a-womens-prison/

Still haven't answered the question Mydoctor.....

Do you think it's right that Karen should have been allowed to go to a woman's prison?

It's her right, as laid down in law.

That's interesting, arran, thank you.

Mydoctor, do you think there is anything sexist in your view at all?eYou seem to be saying that it's OK to house a born male rapist in the female estate because Karen's feelings are more important than Karen being made to face the reality of their imprisonment, whereas the women that Karen assaulted just need to suck it up because their feelings are less important than their requirement to face the reality of their imprisonment.

Or more simply: male feelings matter and female ones don't.

HAve I got that right?

Next thing you know this guy's gona be telling us he's a male lesbian?!!

"How do you feel about the high rates of self harm and suicide in young offenders?
That's sad, but my sympathy is with their victims."

Oh wow.

It's her right, as laid down in law.

What about the rights of female prisoners not to get sexually assaulted by a male? Robust safeguarding (ie. Not letting a man with a history or sexual assault and rape access to women) would have prevented it.

And that still doesn't answer the question anyway.

You can't answer it can you? Because you think that women who are sexually assaulted prison should have less rights than a male sexual offender who reckons he is a woman.

Fucked. Up.

Or more simply: male feelings matter and female ones don't.

HAve I got that right?

No, of course female feelings matter. They wouldn't have been housed in a women's prison otherwise. If an inmate assaults another inmate, with or without a penis, that's unfortunate but I'm guessing it accounts for a tiny fraction of the assaults in women's prisons.

No, of course female feelings matter. They wouldn't have been housed in a women's prison otherwise.

ODFOD.

Karen White is not female.

"What crime is a step too far for you - rape is bad but only what they deserve apparently, what about torture, murder?
I'd prefer there to be no violence in prisons, but it's just a fact of life. Policemen use it as a bargaining chip to squeeze suspects with."

So it's OK to lock women in cells with violent sex offenders with pensies.

Oh wow oh wow.

Are you one of these reversy people like the russians do?
The ones who pretend to be advocating for something and say ridiculous extreme things in order to increase hostiltity and division?

No-one thinks the things you are saying. No one.

Pretty much no-one thinks never mind about 16yo who have not committed violent crime committing suicide while incarcerated.

Anyone who does - probably bears watching as they lack some really fundamental things missing in their psychological makeup.