To think a rapist shouldn't be in a women's prision to start with?

[MipMipMip]

A rapist has now admitted to assaulting female prisoners while in a women's prision. (This individual is in prision for rape but the assaults on prisoners do not appear to have been rape. Assuming all have come forward. )

But there is a large part of me that think this is down almost entirely to the people who put him there. Don't get me wrong - I blame the rapist. But it is clear that they are opportunistic. So while you wouldn't be surprised if someone went in a tigers cage and got eaten, you shouldn't be surprised that a rapist going into a women's prision assaults women.

These assaults were wholly avoidable. AIBU to think the people who enabled the rapist should be held partially responsible?

*for clarity: as MNHQ do not allow a person to be misgendered and this individual identifies as trans I have not used male pronouns. I hope that this does not prevent clear discussion.

@NothingOnTellyAgain in this unlikely scenario she would be the father, not the mother. Are incarcerated fathers usually allowed in mother and baby units? I don't think so, so I don't see why this would need to change.

" imaginary trans predator "

This is an ACTUAL trans predator. He sexualyl assaulted 4 women in prison and has been convicted of multiple rapes.

"trans women are held to be even more suspect than men"

You don't see any difference between the people who are IN PRISON and the people whose job it is to work in the prison?

Crikey.

FWIW loads of women follow and support the prisons reform trust, your gotcha is useless. Many women especially feminists have lots to say about the prison system.

This is not the thread for it though.

Your argument is that men WORK in prisons so male prisoners including sex offenders should be locked in with the women.

I think you're a "reversy" person who posts outrageous things to increase antipathy for the group they say they support.

The authorities are to completely to blame. Why, after the first sexual assault, was "she" not removed immediately? instead of being allowed to commit further offences? Where is the duty of care to these women? It's obscene. As far as I am concerned, if a prisoner has a penis then they should be in a male prison, end of. Utter madness.

WTF littlekitty

That is outrageously transphobic

TWAW - they would be the mother

Lots of TW refer to themselves as mothers, and ask children to change what they call them when they transition.

Tell me - do you think that transwomen in prison who are going to become mothers should have DIFFERENT rights to the others? On what grounds? TWAW. In a womens prison when a woman has a baby they are put in the mother and baby unit. On what grounds do YOU say that some mothers should be kept out?

Hector

Maybe they rang Lily Madigan who assured them that any woman reporting assaults by this person, were transphobic liars?

The MoJ strategy (linked previously) is specifically about female prisoners.

It is important reading.

The MoJ has a seperate policy for transgender prisoners.

There are clear evidence based reasons for this.

LittleKitty1985

Are you serious?

Your argument is that women are abused anyway, so here have some more?

There's not a woman on here who doesn't agree that prison guards in the female estate should be female. And that female sexual aggression should be addressed. Why the fuck would you think otherwise?

Whataboutery. The go to argument of someone who cannot refute your actual points.

You're going to bat for Jessica Winfield/Martin Ponting now?? Jessica Winfield the multiple rapist?

Wow.

The focus is on prisoners not guards. It's a completely different topic because you know, as we all do, that guards don't get locked in the cells with the prisoners overnight.

What it looks like you're saying is that a few trans women won't make a difference, because women are already being sexually assaulted by guards and each other, so why get so het up?

Do you think prisons should just be mixed sex? If not, why not?

@NothingOnTellyAgain don't try to twist my argument, my original point has always been that the focus here should be on protecting vulnerable women in prisons and that too many people are using this story as an excuse to be transphobic. More female prisoners are assaulted by other cis-female prisoners or male guards than by trans-women; let's get angry about that instead

It's the implication that we only don't like this particular rapist and child abuser because he is trans, as if we'd be fine with him otherwise, that is galling.

Sorry i missed this originally

Are you actually taking the piss?

LittleKitty doens'tt actually believe TWAW.

LittleKitty says a TW who is going to be a parent is a father.

Therefore I would suggest that LittleKitty is an MRA, bogstandard woman hater or a basic GF rather than anything else.

let's get angry about that instead

Why?

So you can't actually answer the question and are trying to move it to another topic.

@LittleKitty1985 NothingOnTellyAgain in this unlikely scenario she would be the father, not the mother.

Your basic premise is that TWAW. So you're are committing literal transphobic violence right there, by calling a woman a father not mother.

LittleKitty, how can you demonstrate that more ‘cis’ prisoners are committing sexual assaults on female prisoners? Your article was from the US. It doesn’t apply here.

I'm not angry just a bit mind-boggled at this story and at the posters who say it's right this person should be in with the women and presumably as TWAW it's not right that they were moved.

of course when you follow the logic of TWAW through to other situations the wheels fall off the argument. Because TWAM. So, there comes a point where it just becomes obvious nonsense. And then they try to change the subject, then they shout you're all bigots, then they flounce.

I know shots

Father indeed.

Disgusting transphobia and prejudice.

In the interests of not allowing incarcerated women to be raped or sexually assaulted, let's start with a self-confessed rapist and convicted paedophile/sex offender who is actively demanding access.

Ffs.

LittleKitty1985

Its a failure of duty of care to protect vulnerable women.

That is the focus.

There are no Safeguarding concerns which shouldn't be raised. Anything/anyone that prevents questions being asked should be seen as a red flag.

This is a universal principle.

No Rufus I am not taking the piss. Why would I be? I was addressing a specific point that Nadia made, claiming we only object to this man because we are trans haters. I've clearly lost the ability to write clearly.

I question the relevance of US prison victimisation data to UK prisons.

The US Prison system is riven with organised crime, gang, and race conflicts. These are present but not as established in UK prisons and this plays out in the power dynamics of dominance in both men and women's prisons and is reported to underpin inmate on inmate assaults. (E.g., Sexual Violence Inside Prisons: Rates of Victimization www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2438589/ )

@TwistedStitch I read your comment perfectly clearly and agree. Not sure what is troubling/misunderstanding other pp?

I've clearly lost the ability to write clearly.

I understood what you meant.

People complaining that we are objecting to someone because they are trans, rather than because they are rapist.

The implication being that if they weren't trans and merely a rapist, we would not be objecting.

Of course, a mere rapist would never get access. So the next point is that yes them being trans is significant, because without that, there is no access.

And, as I said, it's not about being trans-, because transmen are fine

Ok you lot are going off on a crazy mumsnet downward spiral of logical fallacies. I don't even recognise the abbreviations anymore. It makes me really sad that so many people are this transphobic and irrational, but I guess that's just the way it is, I won't try to educate you anymore. Peace out!