To think university snobbery must stop

[Staceystace]

I was telling a friend about my nephew who is off to University. I said to her he is off to x uni to study English, she said oh I didn’t even realise that was even a uni. She then went on to emphasise how her daughter is off to a top 20 uni, she went on to say how she wouldn’t have gone if it was not a Russell or 1994 group as she does not think it is worth the debt. I just got the vibe she was looking down on my nephews uni. Aibu to think this sort of snobbery about unis is terrible and needs to stop. My nephew is not the most academic, but surely not everyone is capable of going to a russell group.

We could say post-92 or new university rather than ex-poly

@chimchar start by looking at the unistats website. That will allow you to compare courses and institutions. Then look at university websites....look specifically at sections which tell you what their previous graduates have gone on to do. Look for links with professional bodies and professional accreditation.
Attend open days and speak to staff . .including the careers team.

My DH, DD and I graduated from RG universities and DD also has a masters from a 'top' RG university. DS is about to go to an 'ex-poly' to study on a course within a department that is highly accredited. Although, he had offers from RG universities, we felt that due to him needing LS, that he was better placed at this particular university as they have a very good learning support department.
Am I a little nervous because he is not going to graduate from a RG university? Yes I am!
Will it ultimately make a difference...we shall see.

Whoever got the 'Russell Group' label into general use has pulled off one of the greatest marketing tricks ever. People assume it's some kind of absolute guarantee of quality when it's actually (successful) branding.

@expat the only thing that will make a difference is your son's attitude to learning and development while he's at university. If he makes the most of his time there he will do well.
I hope your son isn't aware of your (misplaced) nervousness

If you do an English degree and do well, you can go and do a Pgce and become a teacher. It doesn't matter where you go to do this.
Sadly it does.
I've seen some trainees lack very basic subject knowledge whilst having a first in English.
I've seen some teacher training providers pass people who (I've thought how to phrase this) have almost zero capacity to teach effectively but it's fine because 'they have potential'. Not all providers are viewed equally.

Thank you @BlaaBlaaBlaa
That's really helpful. I was literally just looking at the ex grads who have gone on to great things on the uni website! Off to uni stats now to nose. Cheers.

BlaaBlaaBlaa. My (misplaced) nervousness only stems from other peoples attitudes as this thread has shown. Both my DH and DS have seen plenty of people succeed after graduating from 'ex-polys'.

It has been interesting being an expat living in various countries round the world, how ultimately it makes little difference where people have graduated from. If friends tell me that they have graduated in Johannesburg or Auckland, I have no idea of the status of their universities.

DS is very bright but has dysgraphia and sensory processing issues which makes the whole process of writing difficult for him, but yes the will to succeed and development will have to come from within him. He can't wait to get started, although I am very aware at the moment that 'freshers' is his main thought of success and development.

@DieAntword a degree in maths or computer science is clearly one route into the computer gaming industry, not saying it isn't. However, having spent the last year trawling round uni open days and hearing talks on both these subjects and also computer games specific, some of the games degrees have really impressed me and DS. Some of the work produced by those students is breathtaking in its creativity, ingenuity and complexity. I suppose it depends if you want to spend 3 years doing something general and keep your options open, or if you know what you want to do and focus on it. Those new graduates will be able to hit the ground running with key skills already in place, rather than convince someone to take them on and train them up.

Reminds me of an example in a different industry. My friend was head of PR and marketing at a prestigious company and wanted to take on a new graduate trainee. She interviewed a few straight English Lit graduates from Cambridge and RG groups, but quickly realised she'd have to spend extra time training them up to write press releases etc rather than long winded poncy essays and get them to understand the basics of the commercial world. Instead, she decided to concentrate on interviewing Marketing and PR graduates only (mostly from ex polys as that's where most of the courses are) who already understood the PR basics, needed less hand holding and could start off on day one with key skills in place.

My point being, there is no 'one size' fits all route into anything. It entirely depends on the perspective of the employer and what the graduate brings to the table.

@expat I wouldn't worry too much about the views held on this thread. MN is not representative of society. According to MN the only degrees worth anything are those from Oxbridge and RG at a push..... meanwhile in the real world people have a more realistic and enlightened view.
Your son will have a blast .

University for almost everyone has devalued degrees to the point where most mean about the same as O Levels did back in the day.
The exceptions are degrees from Oxbridge, Durham, Edinburgh and the Russell Group universities. Many of the former polys began calling themselves universities to leap onto the financial bandwagon in the 80/90s. I won’t denigrate anywhere or any course in particular but so many aren’t what university is ‘for’. You don’t have be an academic to be a valued member of society but you should be academic to get into university. To say otherwise is to say that any training of any sort should be open to anybody regardless of their aptitude. University has become an excuse for a 3 year doss about funded by loans with very little prospect of employment at the end.
Yes I know there are many many exceptions but why can’t we regard training in non academic subjects as of equal value with that given in universi?

"Both my DH and DS have seen plenty of people succeed after graduating from 'ex-polys'."

Same here. I think the high achieving posters are probably referring to their own experience of their own workplace. Where I work (not a blue chip/law/big city firm) it doesn't really matter where you did your degree, or indeed if you even did one. Some of the most successful managers/directors don't even have a degree.

Although I realise that to get started in the workplace these days, having a good degree seems to be a prerequisite.
I have been doing some research and it is interesting that some high ranking universities are not Russell Group, and some Russell Group universities languish a fair way down in the university league tables.

The non RG universities that are very highly rated by all the league tables are:

St Andrews
Loughborough
Lancaster
Bath
UEA
Surrey

The Russell Group that don't feature highly are:

Cardiff
Liverpool
Queen Mary
Queen's

We are doing the rounds of university open days again as DD wasn't sure what she wanted to do, and one of the first things we loked at after the usual league table/RG ranking is what the employment prospects are afterwards.

With 3 good A levels she is able to apply for courses that are asking for her grades, and she should be able to find a course that is academically rigorous and well respected.

My advice is don't just be blinded by the fact that a university is RG, especially if you are considering vocational courses that are accredited by professional bodies.

I agree thegreylady

@thegreylady not true

The bit about degrees being devalued.... that offends all the hardworking students working towards their degree or just about to start one.

Oh and widening participation is about letting anyone in regardless of their aptitude. It's about making university an option for those students who traditionally wouldn't apply due to class, gender, race etc. They still have to achieve certain entry requirements.

*isn't
Sorry but posts like yours make me quite angry.

Extremely rude. A lot of second tier unis have far better staff and faculties depending on the subject. All academic achievement should be celebrated as she has no idea how hard your nephew worked to get into that university. I know plenty of people who got accepted to russels and 1994 unis only to decide they would rather be at a polytechnic or smaller university where they would have the freedom to do research projects unbounded and have more down to earth classmates rather than people who's parents have highly paid for them to be and they don't actually know or care about the course as they know they have a job lined up at daddy's firm for them when they leave. Also with a lot of these fancy universities their high employment rates are typically linked with their parents having lots of high up friends and connections to get them jobs - the employment rates don't apply to the middle or working class. Many don't get jobs because employers view their university as snobby or as them having been coddled through a degree as long as their parents are paying.

My advice is don't just be blinded by the fact that a university is RG, especially if you are considering vocational courses that are accredited by professional bodies
I agree to a point.

Roughly speaking if you've got good grades and are wanting to study a traditional academic subject then your red brick traditional universities with higher requirements are probably the better bet than some random institution taking people on DDC at A level.
If you're after some more vocational qualifications thrn some of the former polys are really good for them. The best health care professional courses in my area (medicine and dentistry excluded) are at former polys.

YANBU. The university system always has been a symptom of the class divide in this country. It's absolutely disgraceful.

Your friend was rude to say that to you, OP. But she is, of course, correct nonetheless. Universities are not all equal.

I question why your nephew, who you say "is not the most academic" has decided that university is the place for him. He might have been better off taking up employment or an apprenticeship.

My DCs both got 2:1 degrees from Russell Group universities. Both struggled to find employment after graduation. 20 years later, neither is employed in a field even remotely related to their degrees. When DS got his first job, he was working alongside people younger than him who didn't have degrees but who were earning more than him and already had 2 years experience. My youngest DC, now mid 30s, still has a student loan debt.

It does seem there are some interesting views on here, many of which I'm not sure stack up with my experience over the last few years.

My brother walked into an accountancy graduate training scheme after his A levels (much to the annoyance of his colleagues). The requirement for a 2:1 there being decided flexible for the right candidate (he still needed AAA at A level though).

My better half in umpteen jobs has never been asked where their degree was from. They do like to ask a lot about experience though (their career was built on a sandwich year and work experience).

I currently work for a state run service and our job applications are blinded to university so it cannot count for anything.

TheGreyLady I agree with your post word for word.

I wasted 3 years of my life at a second rate 'University' and wish I hadn't bothered. I work in admin and am surrounded by people in exactly the same position as me having also done degrees at none RG/highly rated universities. You can argue until the cows come home but the top universities require high grade A levels therefore the calibre of graduates is better.

The thing that would concern me in the Op's scenario is the fact that the student is going to study English; in these days of insufficient graduate job opportunities for the numbers for students graduating, it may well be that those from Oxbridge / RG will go to the top of the list where this subject is concerned, due to the lack of a vocational element. The student in question will be well-advised to enrich his CV with plenty of w/ex if he can get it over the course of the degree, in the holidays etc.

My eldest daughter went to an ex-Poly and the most successful of her friends did vocational-type degrees, most of which featured a year's internship / work placement. These graduates had no trouble gaining graduate-level jobs and some are now working for top City firms.

I had my own aunty say to a family member (who then told me) that my first class degree was obviously easier to achieve from my smaller city university than from her daughter’s top university.