To think university snobbery must stop

[Staceystace]

I was telling a friend about my nephew who is off to University. I said to her he is off to x uni to study English, she said oh I didn’t even realise that was even a uni. She then went on to emphasise how her daughter is off to a top 20 uni, she went on to say how she wouldn’t have gone if it was not a Russell or 1994 group as she does not think it is worth the debt. I just got the vibe she was looking down on my nephews uni. Aibu to think this sort of snobbery about unis is terrible and needs to stop. My nephew is not the most academic, but surely not everyone is capable of going to a russell group.

Even back in the late 1970s, I remember that The Engineering Society pointed out at a meeting in our city that an engineering degree from what was then a central institution (so a CNAA degree), now a new university and one of the highest ranked in terms of graduate employment, would be worth more than the corresponding engineering degree from the university. I don't think my then boyfriend, in possession of a uni engineering degree, ever actually used it.

op i agree she was BU and she was negative about Uni's because she was a cow saying what she said was an exscuse

And to those saying that all universities are not equal - we are not dealing with equal students!

Obviously if the RG cream off students with the best A-level results, it's hardly a massive shock that those same students go on to get better university marks.

Former polys tend to recruit students with lower school grades, so it stands to reason that their post-university grades are likely to be lower too.

I also think there is a huge issue around social class here. I've had some really great students over the years - really bright and academically able. Talking to them you often find they have come from deprived backgrounds, or have other problems. Some have left our nearby RG competitor and come to us, saying they didn't feel they could fit in in that environment. So I really value the role that former polys play in giving those students the opportunity to go to university, and to feel welcomed, and in some cases, to really excel - when in a RG setting they may well not have done.

Apologies for the rant! It's a topic close to my heart.

@MrsTerryPratchett

It has changed, in part because of the increased pressure of the REF.

Absolutely, TooManyPaws. CNAA STEM degrees were extremely high quality. But did the CNAA validate any English degrees? Indeed, did they validate any humanities degrees?

The non-STEM stuff that the CNAA validated was mostly things like accountancy, law, teacher training, social work and architecture, most of which had not only the CNAA but also had professional bodies stood over them. I'd be interested to know if anywhere which is now a post-92 was operating an English course other than, just possibly, as a subject option for a three-year secondary BEd.

Mother of pearl- not my experience. My only course led by a PhD student was a post grad level beginner course, the rest were professors/Drs even in the first year.

unpopular opinion but I agree with your friend!!!

I almost didn’t go to the Russell group university I was offered a place at because I wasn’t sure it was worth the debt given I wasn’t training for a profession and my family needed money.

My DPs cousin is almost £30k in debt studying international travel and tourism at the “third worst university in Leeds”. Honestly he could have just gone to work at a travel agents it has no benefit. even he readily concedes he just wanted to get pissed up for a few years and avoid getting a job

Shasta - I did say "at most RG universities". I did not say this was universally the case.

At most RG universities the teaching of undergraduates is left to PhD students and other post-grads. The academic staff often do very minimal actual teaching.

That is absolutely not the case in my humanities subject at my RG institution, nor at any other RG institution I know (and I know people at most of them).

Not all universities and courses are equal though.

She was rude to make such a big deal of it though.

he rest were professors/Drs even in the first year.

Our first year is almost exclusively delivered by readers and professors, or in one case someone who's got a fresh PhD but 20 years of relevant industrial experience. The course where the most qualified person is a new-hire hot-shot lecturer with a stellar research record is causing some pondering over their lack of teaching experience. It's true that RG universities have to tendency to imply that post-92s are post-apocalyptic wastelands, but their assumption we spend all day sipping sherry in the SCR is equally inaccurate.

I did say "at most RG universities". I did not say this was universally the case.

Could you name one RG university where PhD students are allowed to do any teaching outside small-group tutorial work? I'm calling bullshit.

I got a first from a Russell group, my colleague got a first from an ex-poly. We do the same job and earn the same amount.

I teach FE, my job is to get students to university. I am proud of each and every one of them whether they wind up at York or York St John.

And to those saying that all universities are not equal - we are not dealing with equal students!

Couldn’t agree more, we can’t all go to russell groups. People also aren’t taking into account distance, some students want to stay in their hometowns and if that Hometown only has a ex poly or Redbrick they are limited.

My DPs cousin is almost £30k in debt studying international travel and tourism at the “third worst university in Leeds”.

His problem is what he is studying, not the university he is at.

I agree that some degree courses must be better than others, but I still don't think it's clear which are better.
Youngest was looking at paramedic courses and the only info we could find was their employability rate, which all seemed dreadful.
Eldest did arts and she based her decision on where final year students exhibited.
Dn is at an RG and seems to be struggling with the pressure, so if you can't get to the end with a great degree should you have gone to a different one and come out with their predicted 1st

KeneftYakimoski
Absolutely, TooManyPaws. CNAA STEM degrees were extremely high quality. But did the CNAA validate any English degrees? Indeed, did they validate any humanities degrees?

Well, there was the School of Art. But, yes, my post-grad year there was at the Business School. Actually, I'm immensely proud of having been to both universities. Though my CV does have to explain what this place was and is now called! 😂

I just seems that universities brings out the worse snobbery in people

No, wine does that.

Universities are different, they do different courses and some have better outcomes than others. There is a snob element but there has to be differentiation. Though some of the newer unis have better courses in some subjects than the older ones do of course.

With the marks he got each year I wouldn't have been allowed to continue to the next year, let alone graduate (I attended a traditional RG)

That's odd, because the pass-mark (40%) is the same across the board- whether you're at an RG uni or a post-92. Are you saying that his marks were predominantly under 40% and that they allowed him to pass and progress despite this? I don't think that represents typical post-92s (or indeed any of them).

Could you name one RG university where PhD students are allowed to do any teaching outside small-group tutorial work?

I know several courses where all the seminar teaching - if that's what you mean by small group tutorials - is done by PhD students. My colleagues and I generally teach our own seminar groups. It's partly a question of resources, as you know. Also that most RG places have more PhD students, some of whom do want or need some teaching experience.

His problem is what he is studying, not the university he is at.

I would argue a labour government who touted education for all and poor life choices by his cousin were the problem but there we go 🤷‍♀️

Couldn’t agree more, we can’t all go to russell groups. People also aren’t taking into account distance, some students want to stay in their hometowns and if that Hometown only has a ex poly or Redbrick they are limited.
Nobody is saying everyone should go to RG
Universities.
They are saying that not all courses and universities are equal.

E.g. . Out of all the trainees I've trained, I've trained one from a certain university with decent subject knowledge. The rest have had awful subject knowledge. Some of them apparently had a 1st in the subject and yet can't explain basic literary terms that are taught in primary school (simile / metaphor).

Now people can choose to go to that university to study that course for whatever reason they like, but people are allowed to have an opinion that it's less desirable than others.

Never heard of Russell group universities in my life - yet I went to one it seems after consulting google. We used to call the majority on the list red brick universities

Totally untrue that RG universities use predominantly PhD students for teaching; no idea where that has come from.
You friend may be rude but she is right I’m afraid. All unis and courses are not equal.
A lot of big companies look at where you want as well as degree class.
Are you trying to argue that an Oxbridge degree is equal to that of a former poly?
Just not the case I’m afraid.

She is still right though, Staceystace - it's a fact that in general RG/Oxbridge attract the best calibre students, and this is well known by employers, who assume the graduates will be the best calibre employees too.

She was right but she was not kind.