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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think university snobbery must stop

708 replies

Staceystace · 30/08/2018 19:22

I was telling a friend about my nephew who is off to University. I said to her he is off to x uni to study English, she said oh I didn’t even realise that was even a uni. She then went on to emphasise how her daughter is off to a top 20 uni, she went on to say how she wouldn’t have gone if it was not a Russell or 1994 group as she does not think it is worth the debt. I just got the vibe she was looking down on my nephews uni. Aibu to think this sort of snobbery about unis is terrible and needs to stop. My nephew is not the most academic, but surely not everyone is capable of going to a russell group.

OP posts:
Xenia · 07/09/2018 16:55

I have certainly written on here about my trips on my bike into town to borrow "What people earn" - a book from the library, when i was a teenager. Much easier these days if you are rich enough to have a mobile with internet access or can find a library to use the internet in or at school.

elena7475 · 07/09/2018 22:01

There are new interesting for some ppl topic 'Trinity, Cambridge v Stanford ' in education

mathanxiety · 08/09/2018 05:20

Topcat
That quote you provided doesn't disprove the point I made about A levels and the first two years of an undergraduate degree in the US. They are about the same level.

It wasn't meant to disprove your unfounded allegation (it wasn't a point). It was meant to corroborate what I said by illustrating what highly selective universities want their undergrads to do.

What does Oxford think of US qualifications?
www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/international-students/international-qualifications?wssl=1
We usually expect students to have:

<span class="italic">either SATs or the ACT</span>

and

<span class="italic">either APTs (Advanced Placement Tests) or SAT subject tests (or a combination of APTs and SAT subject tests, or other equivalent qualifications, if they are in different subjects).</span>

Scores needed:
SATs: students sitting this qualification will need to achieve a total score of 1,470 (out of 1,600). We do not require the optional essay in the SAT. Any candidates with a test date prior to, or including, January 2016 will be expected to have achieved the SAT Reasoning Test with at least 1,400 in Critical Reading and Mathematics and also 700 or more in Writing, giving a combined score of at least 2,100 (out of 2,400).

<span class="italic">ACT: students taking this qualification will need at least a score of 32 out of 36. We do not require the optional essay in the ACT.</span>

<span class="italic">APTs (Advanced Placement Tests): grade 5 in three or more appropriate subjects.</span>

<span class="italic">SAT Subject Tests: 700 or more in three appropriate subjects.</span>

Specific subject requirements: please check your course pages for details.

Superscoring
Candidates are asked to enter all their scores for any tests taken when they complete their UCAS application, showing the relevant dates for each. This gives tutors a complete picture of a candidate's academic record, rather than just the ‘superscore’ of best results for the different sections of any test taken on multiple occasions.

Candidates are also asked to include any pending test scores on the UCAS application: that is, details of any test they intend to take up until the end of Senior Year. Again, this is to give tutors a complete picture of the candidates’ academic record, including studies which are still in progress.

Students doing APs are highly likely to be taking SAT subject tests, and needless to say, they will also have very high GPAs.
I personally know a lot of students who would be candidates for Oxford based on the numbers here.

www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses-listing/mathematics?wssl=1
Anyone who did AP calcBC would be well able for this.

............
I've p[roved that the aid goes to those from privileged backgrounds rather than non.
No you have not, and you still don't understand why you are wrong.
As demonstrated, you completely misread the information that was right in front of you, and you don't understand the phrase 'demonstrated need' or its implications.

The information on writeoffs for the comfortable middle classes in Ivy League prospectuses is meant to counter the myth that a state school is always cheaper. Everyone (except you, apparently) knows that for students from families earning less than $65k the Ivy League is incredibly affordable/practically free. It's the bracket above $65k/$70k that might have assumed they would not qualify for any finaid, hence the specific mention of this bracket. It's an invitation to people in this bracket to keep Harvard (and the rest of the Ivies, plus Stanford, U Chicago, and more) in mind and not to dismiss the possibility that a bright student could go there based on the assumption that it would be financial suicide for the family.

..............
FYI, re salaries for RG vs non RG graduates:www.theguardian.com/global/2015/oct/09/10000-extra-a-year-the-reward-of-a-degree-from-a-top-university
The financial rewards of a degree from an elite university are revealed today in a report which estimates that an Oxbridge graduate will earn an average £10,000 more every year of their lives than a graduate of a non-Russell Group university.

According to the report by the Sutton Trust, graduates from Oxford and Cambridge will over their lifetimes earn on average £46,000 annually, compared with £41,000 earned by other Russell Group graduates, and just under £36,000 by graduates from other universities.

And...

www.bbc.com/news/education-41693230
Includes a graph entitled 'Universities Ranked by Median Earnings'.
'A picture paints a thousand words'

Graduates of the 24 Russell Group universities earn an average of £33,500 after five years - about 40% more than those who studied at other universities...

...Importantly, many of the differences here are not down to the universities themselves.

They have different average earnings partly because students aren't all the same - they have different abilities and interests.

Entrants to Oxford, LSE and Russell Group universities start their degrees, on average, with better exam grades..

...even when comparing students who did the same subject at the same university, those from the richest households still earn around 10% more than their peers from less affluent backgrounds.

This suggests improving access to university alone is not enough to address issues of social mobility.

Topcat your assertions about RG/nonRG income are off the mark.
Blaa - your assumptions about access are too optimistic.

mathanxiety · 08/09/2018 06:07

www.bbc.com/news/education-45421621
A discussion of the coming storm in university financing and student loans and the public accounts, with implications for the future of 'university for all'.

Xenia · 08/09/2018 07:58

Good link; thanks and it is we tax payers bearing that 61% of the loans being written off.

bpisok · 08/09/2018 08:12

@topcat1980 - coincidentally DD and I went to E Coast USA to look at Unis this summer.
The answer from the funding departments we saw was that the entrance is needs blind (ie the admissions team do not have visibility of your funding needs when making the offer) and that the college commits to providing the funding needed to make it possible for any candidates they make offers to. This is in the format of scholarships (ie you don't pay this back) and employment (the student would be expected to work on campus). This is what we were consistently told at the Ivy's and MIT however most of the NON Ivy's are not in a position to provide funding to international students (except Fordham). We were given statistics showing the proportion of students paying nothing, the proportion of pupils paying something and the proportion of students paying nothing at Harvard, Columbia, NYU and Yale. I think the days of privilege attendance is diminishing

WRT how A Levels are perceived it was generally agreed (by the admissions team) that A Levels are more advanced than the standard US education to 18....which is why US degrees are a min 4 years rather than 3. Some said that A Levels would count as credit for year 1 and would mean that the number of classes that need to be taken would therefore be reduced. The time could be spent doing year 2 work. It's feasible for a UK student to complete the course in 3 years with a massive slog but they didn't recommend it. To apply you apply direct to each university and each have different requirements, the want SATs/ACT and SAT subject tests, lots of references, school reports going back for years and writing several essays that each Uni sets. Interestingly many don't bother with interviews. So application is a real pain and again hard work.

My DD could leave university with no debt is she is bright enough.

I think the issue regarding places for the privilege is right but it's not about money- it's about the privilege of having parents who can assist in finding out the facts about funding and having schools who are willing to facilitate the arduous application process.

The ticket price is so high that it puts people off and gives the impression that it's only possible for the super rich - that impression is quite simply wrong. But it is for the super clever - If you wouldn't be a viable applicant for Oxbridge then you wouldn't be a viable applicant for the Ivy's

Not sure if this helps in this argument but since we have just come back I thought I would chip in with the current info we have been provided - there seems to be some confusion !!

elena7475 · 08/09/2018 08:29

I don't know a lot about all Ivy unis but Harvard is taking very few ppl. It is about 30 children a year. Most of them are educated in private schools and few are in grammar schools.
I can't say for definite but at the interview most likely children will be asked about their offers. (therefore Oxbridge offer are one of the requirements). And don't forget how long your child CV supposed to be at the age of 18 🤷‍♀️

mathanxiety · 08/09/2018 08:48

bpisok - yes indeed, a very bright student - from anywhere - could easily emerge from many superb universities with a world class education that cost next to nothing. There are 66 or 67 universities/liberal arts colleges that offer to meet 100% of demonstrated need of all admitted students, and they admit on a need blind basis. Not all of these institutions will meet 100% of demonstrated need for foreign applicants but they will do so for citizens or students with green cards. As a result, they attract the most talented and accomplished individuals. Some have admission rates of under 10%.

The standard US education to 18 might include many 'honours level' courses but does not include AP level courses, which is what the majority of students who are considering applying to highly selective universities are taking - most will have done AP math, AB or BC calc, stats, computer science and more, English, history (certainly AP US history and possibly AP European history), psychology, government, economics (micro and macro), at least one AP lab science and possibly more, as well as environmental science, and also a MFL. In addition, many take AP studio art and produce a portfolio if art, various design schools or architecture are in their sights, or Art History. There are more...
AP courses are easily on a par with A levels, with some subjects outstripping A levels.

AP courses are taken by students because they are intellectually challenging and also because they offer comparison of your performance with a national benchmark. Another means of comparison is the PSAT/NMSQT which is used to determine National Merit Scholarship finalists and semi finalists (the finalists have scored in the top half of one percent nationally), and another is SAT subject tests.

Highly selective universities are therefore drawing applications from a nationally graded pool of candidates for admission, and not relying on the grades offered in individual school districts, which may have different ideas on what constitutes an honours standard course.

Within the US, application is very streamlined (but a lengthy process requiring lots of writing and chasing down references). Schools use software (Naviance, and others) that links to the Common App programme. Students have accounts with Naviance, Common App, with Collegeboard, with scholarship sites ...

mathanxiety · 08/09/2018 08:56

Xenia, yes indeed, it is we tax payers bearing that 61% of the loans being written off.

Yes, and it is buyers of the debt who will eventually run laughing all the way to the bank with their loan portfolios bought for pennies on the £ (the taxpayers' £ that is) and they will make sure the terms and conditions are considerably tightened up so that they can either sell the portfolios on or make the debtors pay.

elena7475 · 08/09/2018 09:08

Mathanxiety, can you explain how uni pool works?

mathanxiety · 08/09/2018 09:19

From the pov of US students applying in the US or UK students applying in the UK or UK students applying in the US?

elena7475 · 08/09/2018 09:21

For UK student applied to US uni

Miladymilord · 08/09/2018 11:21

God this is boring. Can't you start another thread about US unis. I don't know anyone who's even interested in then in RL Confused

Xenia · 08/09/2018 11:37

I just ignore that bit as we all just stuck to English universities in the family.

Erudio bought the first student loan book I believe - the loans from before 1998 and then were taking on more (but in this case not administering them - SLC will do that ) in 2017 www.theguardian.com/money/2017/feb/06/universities-minister-announces-sale-of-student-loan-book

elena7475 · 08/09/2018 14:15

Ppl really announce that they apply to US unis. They will tell about it if they got offers 🤷‍♀️

Xenia · 08/09/2018 14:33

It is certainly not getting too worried about. This poor chap who seems to sue everyone he works for or marks his papers decided as a child to go to a US university and blames Oxford for his marks which meant he "only" got to work for London law firm Clifford Chance. He not surprisingly lost his case.

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/oxford-university-sue-fail-first-degree-high-court-faiz-siddiqui-brasenose-college-a8199921.html

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/siddiqui-full-judgment.pdf

mathanxiety · 08/09/2018 20:50

Elena, it really depends on the university. All highly selective universities are looking for exceptional potential as demonstrated by results to date. Personal qualities are also taken into account. An exceptional talent in some particular area on top of academic potential will also be looked at. There are no quotas for international students - international applicants are placed in the same pool with all the rest in each case, as far as I am aware, with the academic cutoffs dependent on overall strength of the pool at large.

www.harvard-ukadmissions.co.uk/what-are-we-looking-for/

admission.stanford.edu/apply/international/index.html

collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/contact/international-counselors
collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/international-students

admission.williams.edu/apply/international-applicants/

elena7475 · 08/09/2018 20:58

Thx Mathanxiety

mathanxiety · 08/09/2018 21:07

Yes, back to the UK...

Wrt the Erdio sale - there is no way the government got value for money from this sale. Basically, the loan portfolios are sold to bung holes in the budget, but the budget shortfall is massively underreported because the loans are not recorded as part of government debt.

www.slc.co.uk/media/latest-news/changes-to-interest-rates-and-thresholds.aspx
Terms and conditions are subject to change even as things stand. There is no way the government can give assurances that this will not be the case once a portfolio is sold. Maximising the income potential of a debt portfolio makes the product more attractive and increases the potential of a price higher than pennies on the £ for the taxpayer.

I suspect students with loans are going to find themselves greatly squeezed in years to come, and value for money in terms of employment upon graduation will be far more of a factor than it is right now for many students. I would expect to see many courses simply scrapped as demand dries up.

mathanxiety · 08/09/2018 21:12
  • Erudio
topcat1980 · 10/09/2018 08:45

Sorry Math, yet again the data you posted doesn't back up what you said on earnings.

BTW the data I used for my previous point was the same data you linked to before to "prove" your point regarding the difference between Russell Group and others earnings.

www.bbc.com/news/education-41693230

This piece of data that you linked to here is actually very interesting.

What it actually shows is that there is a significant difference between Russell Group universities themselves, with Oxford Cambridge and the LSE topping the rankings, but this is a significant spike away from the rest of the group, showing that the average earnings of these Universities actually distorts the whole Russell Group median to make it higher than it would be without these institutions.

Furthermore, most Russell Group universities have medical schools, and as medics earn the most after 5 years of graduation ( which is what the IFS study looked at) on average of any qualification this further distorts the Russell Group average.

Bascially what the data shows is that unless you want to Oxbridge, or one of the London Universities, or studied medicine your degree returns you about the same as a degree from any other institution.

Its hilarious that yet again the data you pulled to back up your point doesn't stand up.

BTW The reason you need 5 AP courses, not 3, is that they are more the standard of the old AS, rather than an A2 or new A level course.

topcat1980 · 10/09/2018 09:33

Here is some interesting data on Ivy league attendence

cornellsun.com/2017/01/23/1-in-10-c-u-students-in-richest-1-low-income-students-underrepresented-study-finds/

"Ivy League schools enroll more students from the top one percent than they do from the bottom 50 percent, and only Columbia, Cornell and Harvard enroll more students from the bottom 60 percent than they do from the top one percent."

Going back to the data linked to before though, that 65% of Harvard's intake come from Households in the top 20% of income in the US, the data does suggest that places at Ivy League schools are still overwhelmingly taken by the children of privilege.

It doesn't matter about the "percentage of students who pay nothing" this is misleading, because if that aid is given to students who's household income is above the median ( as it is at Harvard) then this is not creating greater levels of equality, but actually entrenching the positions of privilege.

Its the same in UK public schools, they give out bursaries but in fact only 1 % of them cover the full fee, and the majority are paid to families who are in the top income quintiles.

mathanxiety · 13/09/2018 05:02

What it actually shows is that there is a significant difference between Russell Group universities themselves, with Oxford Cambridge and the LSE topping the rankings, but this is a significant spike away from the rest of the group, showing that the average earnings of these Universities actually distorts the whole Russell Group median to make it higher than it would be without these institutions.

Clearly you can't read graphs Topcat.

What the graph shows, in colour no less, is that the RG/nonRG divide is the significant one when it comes to income. Each little dot on the graph represents an individual university. Hint: the red ones are RG. What you see is individual RG universities' positions in relation to each other and in relation to nonRG. There are a few blue dots sprinkled among the red ones but the trend is obvious.

Furthermore, most Russell Group universities have medical schools, and as medics earn the most after 5 years of graduation ( which is what the IFS study looked at) on average of any qualification this further distorts the Russell Group average.

Bascially what the data shows is that unless you want to Oxbridge, or one of the London Universities, or studied medicine your degree returns you about the same as a degree from any other institution.

Here is another illustration of how your assertion is completely wrong:
www.bbc.com/news/education-44395621
More graphs!
And commentary!
Jack Britton, senior IFS research economist, said: "Family background has an important impact on graduates' future earnings, but subject and institution choice can be even more important.
"Even when comparing similar graduates, being from the highest socio-economic background adds around 8% compared to being from the lowest.
"However, compared to the average degree, studying medicine or economics adds 20% to graduates' earnings, while compared to the average university, going to a Russell Group institution adds around 10%."
I don't think the conclusion could be expressed more clearly.
The conclusion being that some universities are great value for money and some not so much, no matter what degree you earn.

As you can see from the further graphs provided in this link, digging deeper reveals that comparing individual subjects in different universities shows that some universities produce graduates who are paid more than others no matter what the degree may be. The universities that do this are the RG universities.

www.businessinsider.com/how-ivy-league-financial-aid-packages-stack-up-2017-3#yale-university-9
I am not sure what you don't understand about income levels and financial aid. What happens in the US is the direct opposite of public school bursaries.

The raw $65k figure isn't the full story. Also taken into account is number of children, number of family members in full time education, number of family members in third level education, assets, significant medical bills, and several other factors. Families fill out the FAFSA and also the CSS Profile, and perhaps also an individual university questionnaire to complete the family financial picture.

A family with an income of $100k might on the surface look like a family in a privileged financial position (not really, in US terms but anyway...) However, they might have five children or maybe one child has been battling leukemia and there are medical bills, or maybe there are twins heading off to university, or maybe there is an older sibling at university and the family is faced with the expense of two lots of tuition/room&board. All of these factors mean that that $100k family qualifies for far more institutional aid than the raw figure might indicate.

Xenia · 13/09/2018 07:43

LSE may do well because people might go from there into City of London jobs in finance perhaps more than some other universities (plus it is a good university which is hard to get into and you need high A level grades). In other words subsequent job choice (where you have good enough qualifications and university institution to have a choice of higher paid jobs) could skew the tables a bit unless they have allowed for that (I've not read them as not sufficiently interested in it - my 5 have gone/ are going to reasonable universities and are doing fine)

ErrolTheDragon · 13/09/2018 08:31

Those two bbc links contain some good information, from which we can draw our own conclusions. (Though one of mine would be, people likely to be able to understand graphs and statistics will tend to earn more than people who don't.)