To think university snobbery must stop

[Staceystace]

I was telling a friend about my nephew who is off to University. I said to her he is off to x uni to study English, she said oh I didn’t even realise that was even a uni. She then went on to emphasise how her daughter is off to a top 20 uni, she went on to say how she wouldn’t have gone if it was not a Russell or 1994 group as she does not think it is worth the debt. I just got the vibe she was looking down on my nephews uni. Aibu to think this sort of snobbery about unis is terrible and needs to stop. My nephew is not the most academic, but surely not everyone is capable of going to a russell group.

Do you have a link to the passages you quoted on attitudes to engineering, Errol?

Yes, it was in the wiki page on polytechnics but the MN markup is fouling the link because it's got two underscores in it. Google search 'polytechnic Uk wiki' should find it.

@math those are the facts , that's the current system. I didn't design it and I don't necessarily agree with it but that's what we're dealing with.

I can see you're spending an awful lot of time on Google trying to formulate an opposing argument to any poster that dares to speak up in support of universities that aren't classed as an elite institution. But, and no offence intended, it's like arguing with my dad. He's read a few things in the paper and on the internet. He's heard all the stories about horrific student debt and graduates working in Costa with no chance of paying back the debt they've built up but the reality is he doesn't understand the sector and the policies driving it. He doesn't 'get' widening participation and social mobility and he doesn't understand why people might want to go to university purely for the love of learning and he certainly doesn't understand why people are willing to borrow money to do so.

I'm not going to engage in any further arguements with you. You're being deliberately goady and many of your posts are offensive to students who might not be A* calibre or attended one of your approved universities but have still worked their arses off to achieve a degree.

I can only hope you've not wasted too much time googling this topic.....at least I get paid to know this information.

Any snobbery here is on the part of those who see any university degree at all as better than alternatives for school leavers.
I agree.
As if somehow having a degree, however non academic the student is somehow worth someone else funding 3 years of an experience because they never end up hitting the repayment threshold.

One thing I care about quite a lot is seeing what else is available for studnets. I've seen some studnets get degrees alongside apprenticeships so they work for a company and the company pay them a reduced salary and put them through university. Others have made decisions to wait a year, get some work experience in the field thry think they might want to do and then apply.
The more switched on students are starting to seriously consider if the idea of everyone goes to university is the best way to get where they want to. For many it will be, but i think the commodification of the university experience means some more switched on students are viewing it more as a transaction and want to get it right.

Others think they are paying for a degree, rather than paying to attend university which may or may not mean they earn a degree. (

I have to agree you are being goady math

Good luck and hope your children love their elite universities!

AuditBird, I am using an example supplied upthread by User of native UK speakers of English, students who have trouble with pronouns and who have difficulty understanding trigonometry.

user1471450935
how hard it must be if you easily understand Trigonometry or the use of pro nouns, to explain to someone like me or my child how to learn them, as we don't have a clue what you talking about

I am also thinking of the experience of the observations of user1471450935 Sat 01-Sep-18 19:48:08, one of whose DSs found it harder to get into an apprenticeship than it would have been to get into a university, and one of whom has an adjusted offer on his plate after getting CCCD.

Christ,
For a thread on ex poly's and university snobbery, how have we ended up arguing for 5 pages over student debt, Blaa and I have told how it works.
For people, who claim to champion social mobility, who are doing a brilliant job of putting of the WC and Lower MC class kids. I almost think you actually want them to stop applying.
Pasta
You must have done very well for yourself, ex WC who has saved up enough to stop 2 DC needing loans, that's £9250/year times 3 which is £27750 times 2 DC equals £55500.
That was our mortgage 5 years ago.
For most WC, Lower MC you have to use Student finance to access HE, so don't add to the scare stories.
All you are doing is making sure true MC and UC kids are the only ones who go to university, and that's morally wrong

mathanxiety has made a valid point that vocational education is as valid as a university degree. A vocational course may well end up allowing you to earn significantly more than a degree.

If you are going to invest a lot of money in a degree it might be worth considering if there is a reasonable chance of it paying you back.

Some courses and institutions give you a higher chance of paying off your debts and making a profit. Is it snobbish or realistic to calculate that payback?

mathanxiety has made a valid point that vocational education is as valid as a university degree

But at the same time rubbishing sports science graduates (which is more of a vocational degree)

She likes plumbers though

Some courses and institutions give you a higher chance of paying off your debts and making a profit. Is it snobbish or realistic to calculate that payback?
I don't think so.
Some newer universities near me offer excellent more vocational courses with fabulous industry links.
Those course are brilliant

Would a history course at the same institution be as good? Probably not.

Personally, I'd be in favour of newer universities with great specialisms to be high education technical institutions and then they could devote their time and energy and money into doing what they are really good at instead of offering creative writing degrees with no entry requirements other than 'call us and we'll be flexible' (no exaggeration. That was on a page I looked up for a student). I also think that would raise the status of some institutions.

I am not being goady, I assure both Blaa and JillCrewesmum, and if you read what I am saying you will see that I am all in favour of technical education being valued, respected, and funded, and opposed to the fallacies that drive the ever-widening demand for university degrees, with the knock on effect on employment prospects of those without degrees.

My remarks on trades earnings are facts. They may not coincide with your view of the value of any degree from any university, but that is not sufficient reason for me to refrain from posting.

Blaa
[My dad] doesn't 'get' widening participation and social mobility and he doesn't understand why people might want to go to university purely for the love of learning and he certainly doesn't understand why people are willing to borrow money to do so.

I assure you I am not your dad, though if those are the objections he has to your pov here, then I would like to meet him and shake his hand, because he is absolutely correct in his instincts. Give him my regards. He is a smart and sensible man.

Even if you want to go to university for the love of learning, you are not going to get that desire satisfied by attending a low-ranked institution, unless you have no idea what 'learning' is.

Widening participation without regard to quality across the board will always lead to differences in quality and differences in employment outcomes.

Widening participation without regard for quality across the board will never lead to increased social mobility.

Even if you want to go to university for the love of learning, you are not going to get that desire satisfied by attending a low-ranked institution, unless you have no idea what 'learning' is

That is breathtakingly insulting to the staff at lower ranked universities and the students that go there.

But at the same time rubbishing sports science graduates (which is more of a vocational degree)

She likes plumbers though
JillCrewesmum

What's not to like about a trade that enables an individual to buy a house, send children to good schools, have enough discretionary income to support local businesses, pay taxes to support programmes for the poor?
And you are there for people in their hour of direst need.

Otoh, I would love to hear what you perceive to be the value of a degree that leads to a job as a personal trainer, earning on average under £20k. You won't even be able to pay back the money fronted by the taxpaying plumber.

Even if you want to go to university for the love of learning, you are not going to get that desire satisfied by attending a low-ranked institution, unless you have no idea what 'learning' is.

I was top of my cohort at a low-ranked university and was supported to publish from my dissertation, funded to attend and speak at a conference, and generally encouraged in a way that as a first-generation student, I needed.

I'm now doing an MA at a RG university and getting similar marks to the ones I achieved at my post-92. I love learning. I've learnt an awful lot from both places.

I agree with some of your points about the practicalities of social mobility, but you're wrong to generalise about lower-ranked universities that way.

Maths
I never went to university, you will be pleased to know.
College of Agriculture was my highest.
Ds2 struggles and his predicated 2+ for English and Maths, I have the delight of two boys.
That example was to prove a lower degree may help a teacher. Believe me most of the kids who struggle with pro nouns and trigonometry, will be luckily if they get to FE/6th let alone university.
Not everyone goes you know.
Yes Ds1 got CCCD, in History Geography and Criminology( learnt in 1 year). He is off to his first choice university, Lincoln, on one of those hated unconditional offers. He even got his predicted grades.

It was 3 unnamed RG and 3 other AAA/B requirement universities, who after results day, either emailed or rang him, offering a place through clearing, 1 for Criminology, 3 for Law and 2 for History, god knows why when he didn't need to.
I believe there has been a drop in the number of 18 year olds, so less going to university.

I feel like I should never be on here, no super qualifications and no high flying kids, we hide on results day, no A*/9's here, and are so bloody delighted Ds is off, to only Lincoln. I feel a freak on here, luckily in RL, we are exactly like most of our friends, family and neighbours.
I think MN is in a permanent bubble.

Do you really, genuinely think that the only job sports science graduates can do is personal training? You are either really quite ignorant or just being goady.

I think the sports science reference was more of a generic point than a specific one.

Courses like Sports Science at a low ranked university are not going to have the same return as an electrical installations course - for most people.

Look to Germany and see how they value vocational courses.

JillCresewmum
If Sports Somethingorother is a vocational degree, why is it taught in a place called a 'university'?

Why is there no tier of third level institutions that call themselves polytechnics or institutes of technology, or whatever, and offer courses like that there, alongside courses such as various branches of engineering, architecture tech, branches of science, IT, design, nursing, accounting, business courses, and more? I would even argue that a degree that leads to work as a personal trainer has no place in a technical third level institution. www.dit.ie/studyatdit/undergraduate/programmescourses/viewa-z/

What exactly is the attraction of the label 'university' for students wishing to pursue technical courses?

Sports Science (that's SPORTS SCIENCE math!) has rather a lot of science in it. A lot of psychology and anatomy. You can do a physio degree with PE a level instead of biology. And, guess what even your beloved RG unis do it. You really are sounding like a bit of a twit.

Maths
The reason it was harder for Ds1 to get an apprenticeship then a place at university is this.
Numbers, who many university places are there, I think 120ish for criminology at Lincoln, I believe.
But when he applied for engineering, the provider took on 45 it had applicants form all over Hull and ERYC.
ON the jobs front, the year Ds1 applied, there was no welding jobs, less then 5 mechanical engineering, 4 belt engineering, 9 maintenance jobs, less 4 machinery and foundry ones and 10 electrical engineering. So 30ish jobs for 45 apprentices, of the 5 people who got places, only 1 is doing the career she wanted, belt delivery systems. 2 work in the portcabin industry, one fits bathrooms in emergency pods for use against pirates and the other bless her now recruits new apprentices for the provider.
Vocational training is both under funded, and still seen as a route for "thick" kids. Sorry until both of these things change, most kids will chose university.

I think MN is in a permanent bubble.

The diverse range of experience and opinions on this thread suggests maybe not entirely?

Scrub the last sentence of my last post, until you see posters on the Eton, Win college and the numerous London and SE private school threads and the Oxbridge and RG/St Andrews/Durham threads saying "but you don't need to go to university to be successful, get a trade old boy/girl you won't have debt and you will be better off in the long run"
Vocational education will be seen as second best, plus for many people vocational education is for the unsuccessful, who ended up in secondary moderns. Britain is still screwed over by 19 and 20th century class systems and IMHO always will be.

It was indeed a generic point, Moussse.

User - the thread began with a report of an incident where going to a less-regarded university to do English Lit provoked a really rude but sadly true response.

The reason the response is true is that where you go is important, but so also is what you study, because both can affect your future prospects.

If your DS were to study Construction Science and Management in Lincoln his prospects would be far better than his prospects with a degree in creative writing from Lincoln. There are places available via adjustment in the Construction Science and Management course, which is BBC.

If your DS were to look for courses in geography in a RG university, via adjustment, he might do even better.

Someone who does not clearly understand what a pronoun is and how it is used is less likely to be able to teach others about it. Someone who doesn't themselves really understand trig is also going to be hampered in their ability to teach it. You have a better chance of finding someone who understands the material if they have gone to a well-regarded university.

Jillcrewesmum
We know quite a lot of sports science degree holders, delight off having a rugby mad 18 year old.
Ignore the goady know nothings.
We know premier league managers, football league managers and numerous support staff, many on both rugby codes staff and Olympic support staff who have sports degrees.
Two girls work in NFL and 1 more in NBA.
Loads own their own gyms and fitness workshops. There seems to be lots of wealthy SAHM's who husbands happily pay out £100/ week to keep them fit.
Some of the richest people I know have sports degrees.

I got a first from open university while working full time and despite it not being an elite university it still helped me get my dream job earning far more than peers who went to 'top universities'. Experience, hard work and a good attitude are far more valuable than an expensive degree. Your friend sounds like a snooty git. That's great your nephew is going to university to study something he is interested in. x

user1471450935
Vocational education will be seen as second best, plus for many people vocational education is for the unsuccessful, who ended up in secondary moderns. Britain is still screwed over by 19 and 20th century class systems and IMHO always will be.

Nail on the head there. And that is the true snobbery.

Countries that are not hobbled by notions of class to the same extent find educational reform much easier, and encouragement of technical education options much easier.