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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think university snobbery must stop

708 replies

Staceystace · 30/08/2018 19:22

I was telling a friend about my nephew who is off to University. I said to her he is off to x uni to study English, she said oh I didn’t even realise that was even a uni. She then went on to emphasise how her daughter is off to a top 20 uni, she went on to say how she wouldn’t have gone if it was not a Russell or 1994 group as she does not think it is worth the debt. I just got the vibe she was looking down on my nephews uni. Aibu to think this sort of snobbery about unis is terrible and needs to stop. My nephew is not the most academic, but surely not everyone is capable of going to a russell group.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 03/09/2018 23:25

But...

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/feb/09/vocational-degrees-best-highly-skilled-jobs-study

Actually the ultimate 'vocational qualifications' are medical, vets, dentist...

And the university with the highest proportion of privately educated students is ...the Royal Agricultural University .

Here's an interesting idea...
www.tes.com/news/all-post-16-pupils-should-study-vocational-course-former-eton-head-says

(My dd would have adored the example he gave!)

mathanxiety · 03/09/2018 23:31

Specifics then - Sports Science and sports related degrees.

university.which.co.uk/search/course?c%5Bsubject_codes%5D%5B%5D=100433

Sports related courses, acceptance rates, average salary sometimes included.

The average salary figures (where available) show that people who get rich with a degree in this field are rare.

user1471450935 · 03/09/2018 23:35

FFS Maths
It is his bloody dad and brother who struggle neither is off to Lincoln.
For Construction Science degrees, most (All?) need maths and science at A levels, my son has neither. He wanted to do Chemical engineering and had chance to go to Canada, then couldn't do Maths A level.
So to cut a long story short, after abandoning Physics and Chemistry A levels, after only doing double science, as school didn't do separate sciences, he became a police cadet, one of 1st in our force, never missed a meeting in 2 years, successfully "solved murder" tasks, nominated for cadet of year.
He has numerous officers willing to support him through university and help him with any career plans, you will need degree in 2020, so he choose criminology.
I may be thick, but we have spend 3 years getting to this point, it wasn't a stick a pin in a course and hope job.

Actually I find the idea, that kids like mine don't research and have no ides wants good for them highly offensive.

pastaandpestoagain · 03/09/2018 23:35

user I married well, an accidental plus point of my university. I work in the public sector and earn peanuts. We have also been saving since birth, a reasonable chunk of my salary for their education because we could see the way it was heading.

pastaandpestoagain · 03/09/2018 23:36

Currently my dd doesn't want to go to uni though, she wants to go to catering college.

mathanxiety · 03/09/2018 23:45

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/jun/07/economics-and-medicine-graduates-are-top-earners-finds-report

,,,medicine and economics graduates were paid about 20% more than the average, while degrees in business, computing and architecture offered wages more than 10% higher than average graduate earnings several years after entering the workforce.

“Average graduate earnings are around £26,000 to £30,000 five years after graduation, and so these differences could amount to earnings differentials of more than £10,000 a year. If these persist over the life cycle, this could represent a significant difference in lifetime income,” the IFS noted.

Creartive arts degrees, taken by about 10% of students, paid 15% lower than the average, and less for students from the poorest backgrounds.

Overall, the highest-earning courses, such as economics at the London School of Economics and maths at Imperial College London, offered graduate earnings twice as high as the average, while the lowest-earning courses were 40% below average.

Sam Gyimah, the higher education minister, said the results had “far-reaching ramifications” for the debate on higher education funding.

“The clutch of underperforming degrees is a problem for students – it is likely they include many of the courses whose students feel they are not getting value for money,” Gyimah told a Higher Education Policy Institute conference.

“They are also a problem for the taxpayer, since courses where students tend not to earn graduate salaries after graduation account for a disproportionate share of the costs to the public purse of the student loans system ...

“And they are a problem for the reputation of the sector. They are the inconvenient kernel of truth underlying critiques of mass higher education.”

The research showed men’s wages rose faster than women’s after graduation. Graduates who attended independent schools enjoyed a considerable pay premium, above even those from the top 25% of wealthiest households who attended state schools.

Jack Britton, a senior research economist at the IFS and an author of the report, said: “Family background has an important impact on graduates’ future earnings, but subject and institution choice can be even more important.

“Even when comparing similar graduates, being from the highest socio-economic background adds around 8% compared to being from the lowest. Compared to the average university, going to a Russell Group institution adds around 10%.”
Creative industries fear tuition fees will kill supply of talent
Read more

Graduates who had earlier gained an A* in GCSE maths earned considerably more than those who obtained As or Bs.

Seven years after graduation, men with As in GCSE maths were earning £48,000 on average, while those with As were on £39,000 – but graduates who failed to gain a C were earning less than £26,000. For women, those with As averaged more than £40,000, with £33,000 for As.

The authors cautioned that some of the high returns offered by certain degrees or institutions may be the result of other factors that are difficult to measure.

“They may reflect differences in unobservable characteristics between different student bodies if, for example, some courses are more likely to take students with better socioemotional skills or greater preferences for work,” the research noted.

Essentially, the Report details where you are going to get the biggest bang for the taxpayers' buck.

JillCrewesmum · 03/09/2018 23:48

get rich Grin

user don't have to justify yourself to math I suspect she is not all she seems.

user1471450935 · 03/09/2018 23:52

Maths
I notice you conveniently missed of the first half of my post about public schools/Oxbridge types never doing vocational routes, funny that. Most WC kids know vocational routes, as A) most have parents in such jobs and B) sadly even today most kids in secondary moderns are WC.
English degree/Creative writing at Lincoln, what do you any of you know. I don't know much, apart from the university puts on special days, every year, where a specialist in their fields come and spend a day, weekend or week working with students.
So from the pictures on the wall, there is Chris Packham, Carol Ann Duffy, two RSC actors, head of research at Siemens, Head of NHS research. I really think because Lincoln is new and knows it has to overcome it's looked upon status, it really does put its students forefront to every thing.
Carol Ann Duffy gives advise and seminars on how to write, they are even open to the public at a price of a ticket, if available.

pastaandpestoagain · 03/09/2018 23:53

You might not like what math is saying but she is a long time poster without a name change, whose posts in another section I have seen for years.

user1471450935 · 03/09/2018 23:55

pasta
Thank you for replying
Sorry if my post was to personal or rude. Smile

UpOnTheDowns · 04/09/2018 00:02

Good luck and hope your children love their elite universities!

That's a bit of a silly comment - I certainly loved my particular elite institution and can't imagine I'd have thrived half as well anywhere else. I suspect most people who enjoyed that opportunity secretly share my attitude, whatever political ideology, the capabilities of their kids, or simple politeness might prompt them to argue in public.

user1471450935 · 04/09/2018 00:06

Jills CreweMum
It keeps me busy, plus I learn new things, and I often using separate tabs to go off and read links, research university courses, confirm by beliefs and often have them blown out the water. It's like a second education.
I would never get the chance in RL to talk and exchange views with the likes of you, Blaa and maths and every now and then you think I may have broken a myth, like student debt to WC kids or shown Lincoln and other lower rank universities can be good.
Anyway I am going to bed, I will catch up again tomorrow, if it's still going.
Thank you all for a though provoking thread, which does revolve around Oxbridge.

mathanxiety · 04/09/2018 00:09

Again, my use of Construction Management at Lincoln vs Creative Writing at Lincoln vs geography (not offered at Lincoln) was generic and intended to illustrate my point in this thread that all degrees are not alike and where you get one matters. The comment that a prospective grad /your DS could still get into Construction Management was to illustrate how adjustment works even as long as we now stand after offers have been made.

(Criminology is a great choice, since you include that detail and the career plan.)

I find the idea, that kids like mine don't research and have no ides wants good for them highly offensive.
I do not have this idea.
There are posters here who think being debt averse is a bad thing and that any university for any degree will lead to a healthier bottom line for the individual and on the societal level improvements in social mobility. Not me.

I am flying the flag for vocational/technical qualifications as opposed to degrees, and respect for institutions other than universities.

user1471450935 · 04/09/2018 00:19

Final point tonight,
In maths post of 23:45, it says men who have A* in maths earn £48000, A earn £39000, but those that fail to get a C earn less then £26000, this is for Gcses. But that's surely common sense, C at Gcse, or now 4, is classed a the pass mark, so if you failed to get C so D,E,F and G (U) you in all respect failed, and are going to have to try much harder to access high earning jobs.
The rest to me, just really proved what an unfair and deeply class ridden society Britain is in the 21st Century.
Especially this Graduates who attended private schools gained fair higher salaries then even others in the top 25%
Well that's no Shock is it Wink
Good night.

JillCrewesmum · 04/09/2018 00:28

am flying the flag for vocational/technical qualifications as opposed to degrees, and respect for institutions other than universities

Which qualifications and institutions?

mathanxiety · 04/09/2018 00:29

Most WC kids know vocational routes, as A) most have parents in such jobs and B) sadly even today most kids in secondary moderns are WC.
English degree/Creative writing at Lincoln, what do you any of you know.

And that is why it is a pity that 'widening participation' in 'university' education was attempted without regard for outcomes for the weakest or the most disadvantaged students and those lacking cultural capital.

It did not result in more respect for degrees. It has not had an impact on social mobility except to exclude people without degrees from jobs that they could previously have hoped to get. All the widening and poorly thought-out funding initiatives have done is saddle students with debt and cause employers to discriminate among universities and courses, and not in favour of graduates of every course in the newer universities.

Widening participation could have been accomplished by establishing a wide and well funded system of technical institutions - building on the polytechnics that were already there would have been an excellent idea.

Wrt 'what do any of you know'?
Two of my uncles emigrated from Ireland to England in the early 60s and both did blue collar work. Their children went to university, to degrees in the sort of subject listed in the Guardian article I posted. Not creative writing degrees or degrees in English Lit. They got good career and third level advice from our grandfather who left school at 14 and worked for the rest of his life on his farm. He was an avid reader of newspapers.

It's a huge pity that career and third level guidance in secondary schools appears to be so weak in England and Wales (maybe also in Scotland), but the information is out there.

mathanxiety · 04/09/2018 00:30

JillCrewesmum for a system such as the IT system in Ireland.

mathanxiety · 04/09/2018 00:33

But that's surely common sense, C at Gcse, or now 4, is classed a the pass mark, so if you failed to get C so D,E,F and G (U) you in all respect failed, and are going to have to try much harder to access high earning jobs

Yes it is common sense, User, and to get the highest earning jobs you have to go to the universities that accept the highest scoring school leavers. It's not snobbery to observe that universities that accept applicants who score lower are less well regarded.

JillCrewesmum · 04/09/2018 00:33

I am not from Ireland, we don't have those institutions in England, we mainly have universities now. They offer all kinds of degrees. Some colleges offer hnds which are another option allowing students to then progress to a degree.

mathanxiety · 04/09/2018 00:34

...for a system such as the IT system in Ireland and also for the return of the polytechnics that held so much promise.

mathanxiety · 04/09/2018 00:36

...but were cast aside for reasons to do with the cachet associated with the term 'university'.

mathanxiety · 04/09/2018 00:37

Sorry to serial post - internet is being affected by a massive thunderstorm here....

JillCrewesmum · 04/09/2018 00:44

But teens today have no memory of polytechnics. Yearning after the kind of further education you miss is pointless, it's nearly 30 years since they changed. Tbh the last thing we need is teens going into manufacturing which is dead in the water sadly.

ErrolTheDragon · 04/09/2018 00:55

for a system such as the IT system in Ireland and also for the return of the polytechnics that held so much promise.

I'm not sure there's a way back to that now....Another factor to lob into the mix is the uncomfortable fact that while tuition fees are the same for every subject, the costs of running different courses varies enormously. Low contact hours arts courses are in effect subsidising high contact hours courses which require labs and equipment.

Kokeshi123 · 04/09/2018 00:57

All universities are not equal.

However, your friend was very very tactless to make the comments she did in a social situation. Completely uncalled for.