To think university snobbery must stop

[Staceystace]

I was telling a friend about my nephew who is off to University. I said to her he is off to x uni to study English, she said oh I didn’t even realise that was even a uni. She then went on to emphasise how her daughter is off to a top 20 uni, she went on to say how she wouldn’t have gone if it was not a Russell or 1994 group as she does not think it is worth the debt. I just got the vibe she was looking down on my nephews uni. Aibu to think this sort of snobbery about unis is terrible and needs to stop. My nephew is not the most academic, but surely not everyone is capable of going to a russell group.

Blaa
In addition to SFE, I have spoken to mortgage lenders and asked them for their opinions on student loans. Obviously it has an impact on affordability but it is not treated as debt. The main reason for this is because it's income contingent. Fundamentally, a bank needs to know you can make your mortgage repayments. Student loan repayments stop if income falls below the threshold. That's why they don't prevent you from getting a mortgage

But they do prevent you from getting a mortgage, Blaa.

Q - Will you get a mortgage in many parts of the country if your income is below £25k even if you are therefore not making repayments?
Ans - Dream on.

Q - How much of an income does it take to afford to live in the SE, in London, or other un-blighted parts of England?
A - 'far in excess of £25k'. Even to rent, let alone to save for a down payment and secure a mortgage requires an income much higher than the loan payment threshold, and in that case you will be paying £££ in student loan repayments and the impact on your net income is going to be significant.

Of course, if you are hoping to buy a home in a far less desirable place, where there are far fewer jobs, poorer schools, and the profit you will make on your home should you ever sell it will be limited, then borrow £40k to go to a less well-regarded university and graduate with a degree that is of very limited use, but cross your fingers that you will get a job.

I'll give my opinion as someone who got a degree from a very reputable non UK uni, that ranks among the best in my country of origin.

It was bloody hard finding a good graduate job once I had arrived here, even with a good knowledge of English. Most of ads I saw online were for graduates from "red bricks universities" (at that time I didn't know what they were).

I believe it's snobbish as well saying the ranking of the university you go to doesn't matter at all, it means you are not that concerned about finding a well paid job that pays the debt off after your studies. Especially if the poster turns out to have attended Cambridge or Oxford.

Maths
I said as long has a teacher can teach I don't care where there bloody degree comes from. In 1980 to 1985, I had two maths teachers, one from Durham university, absolutely brilliant maths teacher for top set and 6th form, completely shit for my 3 (bottom set) he couldn't understand why we failed tests and we couldn't understand his teaching. In 1983, a lovely women Mrs Shuttleworth, head of Maths and a degree from, previously mentioned Endslegh teaching college took over, she took top set and us, within 6 months we started passing tests. I left school with CSE 2 in maths, friends with CSE 1, so O level in name, when predicted CSE 5's.
Durham was the bee's knees for degrees and unheard off in Holderness schools, Hull teacher training was below an polytechnic.
I know who I fondly remember as my best ever teacher, as for Durham man, couldn't care less.
A degree doesn't make a teacher, a caring, understanding, patient and yes passionate person makes a teacher.

Poor argument @math. You obviously know very little about the student finance system. If you're interested Martin Lewis provides some excellent guides and FAQs.

But just to clarify in case anyone else is worried about student finance and the impact on future borrowing;

• Student loans do not appear on your credit file. They are not negatively credit scored .

• A person will not be refused a mortgage based on the fact they have student loans

• it comes down to a question of affordability. You will have a lower take home pay if you have student loans so you will be deemed as being able to make smaller repayments

• Ironically, the issue of affordability is one of the areas that students on the post 2012 system actually benefited - the repayment threshold was raised significantly meaning these graduates have more disposable income that those on the earlier syayem ( obviously they are borrowing more though)

• Repayments are 9% of anything you earn over £25,000. A graduate earning £31,000 per year pays back £45 per month. ( Can't see that having a major impact on affordability)

• Generally, the theory goes that the more you earn the more you pay. However, that's only true up to a point. Really high earners actually pay less due to the fact they pay it off quicker . A graduate with a starting salary of £41,000 is projected to pay less than a graduate on a lower starting salary ( just projections based on assumptions of salary growth and inflation)

• A student loan isn't a debt. It has far more in common with a tax....although 'graduate contribution' is far more accurate.

There were paragraphs!

I believe it's snobbish as well saying the ranking of the university you go to doesn't matter at all, it means you are not that concerned about finding a well paid job that pays the debt off after your studies. Especially if the poster turns out to have attended Cambridge or Oxford

Eh?

Can we stop calling student loans debt please!
I explained how they work upthread and so has Blaa on numerous occasions.
Please, please. please go and discuss this on Oxbridge or Durham bloody threads.
WHY?
Because for kids like mine and ones from even lower wealth backgrounds the word DEBT is scary, and believe me, it does put students off, MAYBE NOT OFF TOTALLY, BUT MANY WILL LISTEN TO THEIR PARENTS ABD GO TO THEIR LOCAL ONE, so reducing their debt levels

So please go and argue on a thread where those kids and their parent's won't take interest or end up lurking on because this thread appeared in their google search.

It's graduate tax, in all but name, why? Because the government, well the Lib Dem bit, and SfE say so. Even Martin Lewis of money saving expert says so, and he bloody wishes the government would declare it has one.
But a Tory government could never admit to a new tax could it.

Student loans are a debt, we have saved enough to ensure we can pay our dc's fees (unless there are drastic changes) this means they won't be paying back interest. It may be a fairly easy debt to live with but it is debt, I was delighted when my much smaller Uni debt was finally paid off.

@ JillCrewesmum

Eh?

Let me see if I can explain myself better. Poster has gone to Cambridge, gets a well paid job that gives them good career options. Poster comes on Mumsnet arguing how snob everyone is and that all university are good the same.

Posters who spent tons of money on fees, have debts to pay and have ended up in a crap job might think that going to a ex poly might not have been worth it and recruiters actually do care about the uni you went to.

Yes it s amazing all this tortuous explaining about the graduate loan doesn't appear on the oxbridge threads

@user yes,yes,yes!!!

I was reading some research today on the the perception of student loans in working class communities. This group of people are culturally debt averse. It is the single biggest reason why people from this group don't apply to university.

Obviously there are also the living costs as well as fees, trying to multi task. Anyway we have costed out Uni for our pair and set the money aside, I don't want them having this debt hanging over them.

@pasta it's not debt. Look at Martin Lewis' work on student finance. He explains it very well and outlines why you'd be better off using that money for something different....like paying towards your mortgage or a house deposit for your child.

Completely agree with the OP. What university someone went to is no indication of ability to do a job, it tells you a lot more about their class and background.

I can't help it I'm too working class, we've been really lucky with our lives and I see ensuring my dc have their education sorted as one of my basic parental jobs, I have since they were born. I hated my debt, which was tiny compared to theirs.

If you're applying for a civil service post - graduate trainee/fast streamer etc - or whatever, we don't give a shit as to what Uni you went to. It's all about the quality of your application and examples that demonstrate that you meet the key criteria. If you don't meet the key criteria then your first class honours degree doesn't mean owt.

And we sift blind. We have no idea of the name, age, gender or ethnictiy of the candidates we are shortlisting for interview. Exactly how it should be!! It's all about the best candidate. And I'm very proud that we do that.

Whatever. Maybe my English is not good enough (it's my second language) and I'm not explaining myself properly. I just think it's unfair telling students that it doesn't matter what uni they go to or what subject they study, because in the end they will have the same opportunities as someone who goes to a RG uni.

It's not my experience and I've met plenty of other people at work who said they should have studied something way more specific to help them find better employment. If I had a second chance I probably would have studied Nursing or something similar as it doesn't really matter what uni you study at. But for generic subjects it matter where you have studied.

Do you have a link to the passages you quoted on attitudes to engineering, Errol?

This passage from the The Engineer supports the contention you posted about.
The perception problems referred to by Lord Browne are especially evident in the UK. Of the ten markets surveyed, the UK public was found to be the least interested in engineering. Despite UK participants recognising engineering as a stimulating and rewarding career, this did not correspond to interest in the topic, particularly amongst 16 and 17 year olds. Just 20 per cent in that age group claimed interest in engineering, compared to around 80 per cent in India and Turkey.
www.theengineer.co.uk/engineers-undervalued-in-society-report-finds/

And we sift blind. We have no idea of the name, age, gender or ethnictiy of the candidates we are shortlisting for interview

Good for you. Would that it were the same everywhere!

AuditBird, among your criteria do you include the ability to use pronouns correctly or to express yourself well in written English? Would a candidate who can't demonstrate ability to understand trigonometry be considered? What sort of student gets past the interview stage?

www.gov.uk/government/publications/socio-economic-diversity-in-the-fast-stream-the-bridge-report
Key result thrown up by this survey on the civil service Fast Stream: the profile of the intake is less diverse than the student population at the University of Oxford.

for kids like mine and ones from even lower wealth backgrounds the word DEBT is scary, and believe me, it does put students off, MAYBE NOT OFF TOTALLY, BUT MANY WILL LISTEN TO THEIR PARENTS ABD GO TO THEIR LOCAL ONE, so reducing their debt levels

But that is only half the picture, User.

You can take out loans and go if you qualify to a well regarded university, graduate with a degree in some solid subject, and embark on a career.

If parents are being given the impression that a loan to attend a poor quality institution and study a mickey mouse subject is the same as a loan to go to a better regarded institution and study a solid subject - six of one and half a dozen of the other and both with the same drawback of a loan - then someone is withholding key information from them.

That key information is that your job prospects are much better, and your prospect of actually capitalising on your third level education are massively increased if you choose the better place and get a degree in some area that employers value. And you will pay off your loan.

Calling it a graduate tax and implying that it doesn't matter what you study or where is a lie that is doing people a massive disservice.

Absolutely. I have interviewed many candidates who don't have English as a first language with no problem at all. But of course if a candidate wants to work in the UK Civil Service they need to speak and read English. I'm very pleased to have recruited many foreign English speakers.

The same as if I want to move to Spain and work in the Spanish Civil Service. I would need to speak Spanish. Not sure what your point is. I don't speak trigonometry. Not sure many people do.

Repayments are 9% of anything you earn over £25,000. A graduate earning £31,000 per year pays back £45 per month. ( Can't see that having a major impact on affordability)

And a graduate earning £31k has a snowball's hope in hell of affording a house in many areas of the country. They will always be renters if they live in affluent areas, and they will never build up wealth to boost their children's chances. If they buy, it will be in less affluent areas. Their children will go to poor quality schools because they live in poor areas. Their peers will more likely than not be students from families who do not aim to go to third level education or become financially self sufficient.
How does this contribute to social mobility?

Are you content to see students head off to poorly regarded third level institutions to do mickey mouse degrees financed by 'something that is not a loan' and earn less than what they could be earning as bricklayers/plumbers/electricians? By the time someone has done their paid apprenticeship in any of these trades they are well ahead of students who have spent three or four years absorbing the 'student experience' at such cost to taxpayers (i.e. themselves and their families and everyone else who pays tax).

According to data from the Office for National Statistics, the average electrician salary in the UK is £30,765 per year. Electricians are closely followed by plumbers, who earn an average of £29,136, and carpenters who can expect to bring home £25,729 every year. Bricklayers and tilers earn an average of £25,098, whereas plasterers take home £23,529 per annum.
www.tradesmansaver.co.uk/knowledgehub/what-are-tradesman-pay-rates
I am assuming the average reflects regional variations and also experience/specialty variations.

www.simplybusiness.co.uk/knowledge/articles/2018/03/uk-tradesmen-earn-more-than-univeristy-graduates/
This report claims incomes in some trades and regions are far higher than incomes for some university graduates.

www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Personal_Trainer/Salary
Personal trainer average income - £19,498. You could go to a university and get a degree that leads to this area of employment and this sort of income expectation. Or you could become a plumber...

For those students who are flipping a coin, and if the word debt really is offputting, then I would say forget the local cheaper university and become a plumber.

Are there people snobbish enough to turn up their noses at the trade route to wealth and stability? Are there really people who think a degree in Sports Somethingorother is going to give them a leg up to anything? Any snobbery here is on the part of those who see any university degree at all as better than alternatives for school leavers.

I hope you aren't targeting that post at me. My DS hasn't worked properly since graduating with a 2:1 degree. He's done endless work experience/internships but nothing paid.

My posts were to say that nobody should assume that an Oxbridge degree should give a greater opportunity for work above anyone else. It just doesn't work like that any more.

I work in a sports related field and know several sports graduates who have jobs they really enjoy. Don't know a single one who regrets their degree!

Math you sound bonkers banging on about plumbers! They didn't want to be a plumber!