To think university snobbery must stop

[Staceystace]

I was telling a friend about my nephew who is off to University. I said to her he is off to x uni to study English, she said oh I didn’t even realise that was even a uni. She then went on to emphasise how her daughter is off to a top 20 uni, she went on to say how she wouldn’t have gone if it was not a Russell or 1994 group as she does not think it is worth the debt. I just got the vibe she was looking down on my nephews uni. Aibu to think this sort of snobbery about unis is terrible and needs to stop. My nephew is not the most academic, but surely not everyone is capable of going to a russell group.

It is also my understanding that lenders do not consider the student loan as a debt as such when considering an application. However they do look at an applicants net income after deductions including the loan repayments.

Returning to my point (for which a poster or two castigated me) that an English degree from a "new" university was not great, how would you feel if your dcs were being taught English by someone with a degree from such a place, where the students were studying Animal Farm? Just to be clear, Animal Farm is imo one of the greatest books ever written, but any English student worth their salt should have this under their belt as a given , not be wide eyed about the multi layers.)

Here we have people trumpeting about social mobility, and no doubt demanding good teaching for all (and amen to that) BUT you are just perpetuating the problem if you have people whose degrees were very undemanding - nay, dumbed down - teaching the next generation.

IrmaFayLear
I would be delighted if my son was taught by an English teacher from a lower ranked university. Especially seeing Ds1 had 11 different teachers teaching him English Lang in year 11, when his main teacher died from blood poisioning, collapsed in front of his class.
Basically had to redo all his course work again in year 11, may have got the B he deserved and just missed. I not snobby, as long as the teacher can teach, who cares where their degree came from.
By the way for lower sets, you know those kids who never belong to MNer's, having a teacher who understands that subjects can be hard and knows how it feels to struggle and what it takes to overcome it, might be better than an all A*, ex Oxbridge superstar, where it's all a walk in the park.

socialmobility
I think for lots of poor and disadvantaged and kids from non university backgrounds the biggest hurdle to overcome is not poor university choice, but choosing university in the first place.
Many come from families who struggled at school and don't value education, others like my lad believed the £50000 debt rubbish, and he would be better of on an apprenticeship, even if that cut off all his career options.
Even if a child ends up at Salford, Lincoln, Hull, Hull College, Bishop Burton College, Huddersfield or Leeds Beckitt doing a degree, (I chose them as that's where all DS1 mates are going to do their degrees), so bloody what. Non come from degree holding backgrounds, and all will learn new skills and widen their horizons.
They will learn the same soft skills as someone going to RG, and if they get on a graduate scheme instead of a NMW job in Costa/Amazon, surely that's a win/win situation for all of us.

@irma well I hope my students don't mind being taught by me.....given my degree, postgraduate diploma, masters and PhD are all from new universities. Obviously I'm not capable of providing high-quality education to high achievers. 🙄

By the way for lower sets, you know those kids who never belong to MNer's, having a teacher who understands that subjects can be hard and knows how it feels to struggle and what it takes to overcome it, might be better than an all A, ex Oxbridge superstar, where it's all a walk in the park.*

^

This. Having a degree from a top university does not automatically make you a good teacher. Subject knowledge is very important but so is the ability to engage and inspire students.

I may regret this post on MN, I say this as remain voter. Things have massively changed since 1992, when the new universities came about. The plan was to open up higher education to the masses, highly educated populations tend to be more wealthy. We as a nation needed to train more graduates. There where shortages.
Then in 2004, a certain PM gave free access to eastern Europeans, and suddenly where was a mass influx of degree holding cheaper employees. Yes it's been great, we have dentists, nurses etc, but if Brexit goes the way it seems to be heading, we are going to need to train our youth to replace lost EU citizens and try and (re)build and continue our economy, especially if banking and finance is no longer going to bank roll us
Off to don hard hat and build an Anderson shelter.

God forbid our kids are taught by a teacher who is passionate about the subject

I not snobby, as long as the teacher can teach, who cares where their degree came from.
I agree.
Though as someone who trains teachers I can name one university in my region where trainees routinely have bloody awful subject knowledge. Who know you could get a first in English Literature without knowing basic information like Owen was in WW1 so didn't fight Hitler and not knowing the difference between a simile and a metaphor?
Sadly, every poor trainee I have had has come through that university. I stand by my view that their subject knowledge is so low and they lack any form of initiative of ability to learn about texts. What sort of person has a high degree in English yet is incapable of reading a context summary for a GCSE set text before teaching it?

I have had 1 good trainee come from that place. And even then tjeir subject knowledge wasn't brilliant but they had the personal qualities of resilience and initiative so picked things up quickly.

Do I think it's a coincidence that a low ranked uni with low entry requirements churns out people who lack basic literary knowledge? No. What bothers me is some of these people have 1st and 2:1s.

Some are better though. Some aren't very good and people can get in with not very good grades. I do think that far too many people go on to uni nowadays, it's become par of course.

I take exception to the ides you state that 'highly educated populations tend to be more wealthy'. It's a very broad statement and it doesn't stand up to analysis.

What does 'highly educated' mean?
If you are talking about university degrees then you need to state what degrees create the rising tide that lifts all boats.
If you are talking about 'populations' being more wealthy as a result of more education, what countries might you use as examples - Scandinavian countries, the US, China, India, Ireland, Germany?
The UK had the fifth biggest economy in the world before Brexit, but clearly there are regions that are impoverished (nine out of the ten most impoverished regions in northwestern Europe are in the UK) and regions that are in the top three in NW Europe and even top in the world for wealth (the greater London area and SE).

I also disagree with your take on immigration. FoM goes both ways. The education system failed abysmally to prepare UK youth for the opportunities presented by the EU and to broaden horizons wrt studying abroad.

Blaa, your take on student loans and on how they affect an individual's future borrowing potential is disingenuous at best and downright irresponsible at worst.

They don't show up on your credit report, they aren't negatively credit scored and
It isn't treated as a debt by banks...

...does not mean having a student loan will not prevent you from getting a mortgage.

There won't be an effect on your prospects of securing a mortgage if your income is high enough to overcome the effect of the outgoings per month on servicing the loan debt. If it is not high enough then your net income is potentially low enough to disqualify you. With interest piling up for those making over £25k and therefore repaying the loans, lenders are going to be wary until income reaches a much higher threshold because net income is the important factor.

BlaaBlaaBlaa
Yes obviously but nothing in my statement is untrue. They don't show up on your credit report, they aren't negatively credit scored and having a student loan will not prevent you from getting a mortgage. It isn't treated as a debt by banks - I know because I asked when I used to deliver student finance talks.
Here is your original paragraph that I chopped up, lest I be accused of editing that put words in your mouth. Nothing in your statement is untrue as far as it goes, but the conclusion you draw from the facts about credit scores and whether a student loan is treated as a debt by banks is a leap you should not take.

I sincerely hope you are not going about making the very un-nuanced statements you have made here to audiences who do not have the experience or the insight to question you properly or analyse what you are telling them.

There are actually some studies which support the link between educational attainment and wealth but most studies tend to lump wealth and health together so the data needs careful examination. There is definitely a correlation between educational attainment and health.

@math take your issues up with student finance England as that's were I got all of my information from. Every years I sat down with a representative from SFE and put together approved SFE presentation on student finance.
I delivered that presentation 100's of times a year for over 10 years.

shall we compare the material studied at two universities? Given that even the most rampantly “they are all equal” poster surely would admit that Oxbridge is a tiny bit better and therefore should be omitted, shall we compare what the course consists of at a RG university and a post-92 one?

Dd would like to study English and I am prepared to be convinced why she should choose a new university rather than busting a gut to get the grades for somewhere simply because of “snobbery”.

@math have you ever actually sat down and worked out how much the monthly repayments are? You might be surprised at the actual figures.... remember that figure is calculated not on how much you owe but on how much you earn.

In addition to SFE, I have spoken to mortgage lenders and asked them for their opinions on student loans. Obviously it has an impact on affordability but it is not treated as debt. The main reason for this is because it's income contingent. Fundamentally, a bank needs to know you can make your mortgage repayments. Student loan repayments stop if income falls below the threshold. That's why they don't prevent you from getting a mortgage.

Backintime
Thank you for agreeing with my lower sets comment, I have a lower set lad, I have often thought how hard it must be if you easily understand Trigonometry or the use of pro nouns, to explain to someone like me or my child how to learn them, as we don't have a clue what you talking about.
MaisyPops
I agree with your post at 17:58.
I did as long as a teacher can teach I am sorry, as a lowly non degree, mainly CSE educated parent, that is all that matters to me. Whether they have a degree from Oxbridge or little know university, if they can teach my boys, I will give them my total and utter backing.
Whilst 2 people sort off agree can I ask a question please?
I think of university rankings and their entry requirements, as a bit like sets in school, so Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, and other top 10 as top set, and the rest like sets 2, 3 and 4. So in Ds1 case he has been set 2/3 for most of GCSE's so I think Lincoln is probably his correct choice. But then what really confuses me, is the lower RG universities are willing to accept students with BCC and in Ds case CCCD, offer a place to him, even though they say in November AAA or at least AAB.
Isn't that truly unfair, on numerous fronts, ie to the original AAA students, the professors who will have to help possible strugglers ( maybe should be elsewhere) and to the BCC/CCC student who may drop out. Wouldn't it be better for the BCC/CCC student to be at a university which is designed for their capabilities/intellect?
I would love to know people thoughts

Dd would like to study English and I am prepared to be convinced why she should choose a new university rather than busting a gut to get the grades for somewhere simply because of “snobbery”.

irma if your dd is predicted high grades then in theory she can take her pick of unis. It might be good to have a lower ranked uni as insurance at least as this is a mistake lots of A grade students make.

User
as long as the teacher can teach, who cares where their degree came from.

You are labouring under the misapprehension that all degrees require the same basic standard of familiarity with the subject matter that will be taught and that teachers must have passed some sort of quality control to be placed on teacher training courses. As MaisyPops points out, nothing should be assumed.

It's not about 'passion' JillCrewesmum. One of my DCs had the massive misfortune to have been 'taught science' for a year by someone who basically stayed one page ahead of the mediocre students but was far behind the brighter students, and unable to understand their questions in class.

This woman did not understand the meaning of the term 'scientific method' - and did not understand that she embarrassed herself in front of a roomful of parents on a parent-visit-night at the school when her answer demonstrated that she had never heard the term and upon further probing (because parents were giving her the benefit of the doubt - anyone can get flustered after all) did not know why science involves experiments or what elements should go into the creation of any given experiment.

The kids thought she was a really nice person and that she really loved science. Experiments were always a lot of fun... The students who managed by dint of high maths scores (different teacher) to be placed in the honours track in science and maths in high school found themselves seriously disadvantaged and with mountains of catching up to do. Even the students who were in foundation level science in high school found themselves behind.

I've just had a very quick look at Ba English lit at Durham and Anglia Ruskin.

The first year modules are very similar. That's not to say that the degree at Durham doesn't develop in a more academic way, but clearly they are covering the same topics. Biblical and norse writing, intro to prose poetry and drama, paradise lost,

Univ of Lincoln has a more complicated history than just amalgamation with the Hull teacher training college. It absorbed the former Hull School of Art, the Hull Technical Institute, Endsleigh College, Hull Central College of Commerce, and the Kingston upon Hull College of Education which had all by the 1970s amalgamated to form the Hull College of Higher Education, which in turn was known as the Humberside College of Higher Education from the early 80s after absorbing some small Grimsby colleges. For two short years this institution was known as Humberside Polytechnic. 1992 saw a change to the name 'University of Humberside', and the establishment of a satellite campus in Lincoln. Throughout the 90s and early 2000s there were a few more name changes and gradual drift of campus facilities to the city of Lincoln, until finally the new Lincoln campus was built and the university is now the University of Lincoln.

Afaik, Hull University bought the old Humberside campus, and after various amalgamations and name changes, the Hull School of Art is now part of the Hull College Group. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_School_of_Art_and_Design

There is a bewildering number of name changes, amalgamations and shedding, new campuses left, right and centre.

I have worked at a post-92 and a pre-92 university. I taught the same modules at both places and, being the lazy git I am, I used the same materials and directed the students to the same reading. Sure, there are many more weak students at the post-92 but that is reflected in the relatively high failure rate in assessments whereas at the pre-92, nearly everyone passed first time. Definitely didn’t mark ‘harsher’ at the pre-92 and in fact our HoD told me to raise all marks by 5 points as he felt I had been harsh (I had been pretty generous). It’s really not the huge difference you would think. The ones who did very well at the post-92 would have done well at a pre-92 too. I am pretty sure of that.

Wouldn't it be better for the BCC/CCC student to be at a university which is designed for their capabilities/intellect?

A few points:

There is no point to a university or any third level institution designed for the capabilities/intellect of people who struggle with pronouns in their native language. The fact that such places exist devalues the term 'university' and causes the sort of discrimination among universities that has been described here as 'snobbery' but is in fact acknowledgement of the fact that some universities are a lot better/worse than others.
Admitting students who struggle with pronouns and trig would also denigrate the terms 'polytechnic' or 'institute of technology'.

Foreign students who cannot demonstrate proficiency in English are not admitted to third level studies, so why should native students? You have to be capable of understanding the material and expressing yourself intelligibly in English to embark on a third level course that is taught in English.

It is not snobbery for others to form opinions on the calibre of a university that would normally admit a student who struggles with pronouns to an English Lit course, or graduate them. As to universities who would admit such a student in clearing - clearly just for the purpose of maximising revenue - shame on them.

(There would be precious little help from professors, lecturers or tutors for weaker students at such universities because students are expected to have the basics under their belt, and qualities of resilience and self direction and meta understanding of their own weaker areas that MaisyPops describes).

Students with the difficulties you describe should not be looking at a university (or polytechnic) course at all.

Students who struggle with pronouns should not be studying English Lit at third level. No teacher should allow individuals with this level of difficulty to entertain the ambition of studying English Lit at third level.

Dd would like to study English and I am prepared to be convinced why she should choose a new university rather than busting a gut to get the grades for somewhere simply because of “snobbery”.

Students don't bust a gut to get the grades that would allow better universities to consider their applications because of snobbery, JillCrewesmum.

A university is a community of learners. A community of less able students and/or lazier students = an inferior learning community.

The reputation of places that accept top students is based on the demonstrable superior quality of the admitted students and of the graduates - intelligent, hard working, resilient. The reputation creates demand among both prospective students and employers at the other end. It also creates competition among academics to work there.

Students don't bust a gut to get the grades that would allow better universities to consider their applications because of snobbery, JillCrewesmum

I was quoting. Sorry missed out the quotes. .