To want an apology from my cheating SIL?

[GoEasyOnMe]

I’m going to try and keep the details as brief as possible as this has a long history...

DB and SIL been married c10 years with 2 DC 9 and 7. I have always struggled to understand their relationship as I don’t believe she pulls her weight and from I see, openly speaks unkindly to my DB. My parents supported them and gave them substantial deposit for house, set SIL with job and have generally been at their beck and call. SIL never shown gratitude. DB takes all financial burden and does all housework (I’m not kidding, dishes, hoovering, bathroom, dusting etc) but mainly as he has slight ocd. SIL almost every weekend would spend one full day out with friends shopping or catching up with girlfriends. Often would be out overnight at short notice. I want to be clear here...I absolutely think she has the right to have down time and nights out but the balance is very wrong and DB left holding kiddies.

18 months ago, my DB found out she had been cheating. Not once but over a period of years and with different men. She also rung up debts as had a gambling addiction he wasn’t aware of. She moved out and they kept civil for kids while he pretty much had a mental breakdown. He went into therapy and took a real hard look at how they ended up there.

SIL also laid bare everything and admitted she hadn’t liked herself for a long time (terrible relationship with her own DP) and wanted to face her demons. She also went into therapy on her own...and they did couples therapy.

Meanwhile, myself, DH and DP picked up the pieces with DC.s as best we could and supported DB. It has been a traumatic period for us all!

After the counselling and a lot of work, they have decided to make a go of it. This thread isn’t about his decision...I don’t understand it but have to support his choice. And in fairness, SIL does seem to have had a wake up call and done a lot of changing.

However, as a couple, they now seem to expect everyone to pick up where we left off. It’s my Aunts 60th in November and the first time we will be seeing her since it all happened. I have asked DB if we can have a chat with her beforehand and perhaps clear the air. I’m not talking all at once but feel she should sit with my parents and then myself and talk through it all. My DP have seen her since through childcare but the conversation has wholly revolved around kids, errands and schedules etc.

I don’t want to rake over the whole affair but I do think myself and DP are owed an apology at least and perhaps commitment that things will be different from now on. My DB disagrees and says he was the hurt party and he’s forgiven her so that should be the end of it. It’s not a matter of needing our forgiveness (we respect my DB and will support him whatever), it’s more that we were hurt, we were also let down and we had to put our lives on hold to support him...therefore she owes us an apology too.

AIBU at this event to be civil to her but not fully engage until we get a 121 conversation with an apology and a promise of things change?

If you’ve made it this far, thank you!

I am a little surprised about some of these responses. Most of the time mumsnet wants to take all cheaters and burn them at the stake - it's an unforgivable crime most threads!
And the whole 'none of your business',unfortunately, when the fall out from this catastrophic betrayal takes in your brither, your neices/nephews, your parents and your own partner, it's a bit of cheek to say it's NOTHING to do with you.
I don't necessarily think you are owed an apology, but there is a lot weird when a whole group of people are supposed to pretend that a huge event didn't happen. What is it with people and just squashing all their emotional response to an event? It just gets weird, it becomes the unmentionable thing, and then any further ramifications can't be talked about.
It seems a lot of people here don't talk to their families at all.
I'd also be taking it slow and gentle OP, or if you go on that 1on1, that's your chance to ask her any burning questions you may have.

@Gettingbackonmyfeet @nhssecretary I am not the one instigating these conversations with my DB. He has been asking me for over a month about rekindling my friendship with her. So far I have been too 'busy' but he has now asked me outright what my problem is.

My language may seem patronising g but we each say these things to each other all the time (him to me, me to him) so I know he will appreciate it

Whilst I agree with that majority telling op to keep out of it, I wonder if she'd get the same response If the sexes were reversed?

None of your business.

One thing you did say in your op I picked up on.

You say your db does all the cleaning and has OCD.

If your brother has OCD it would be a waste of time your sil doing anything as it would never be good enough. So cut her some slack on that side of things.

@AnElderlyLadyOfMediumHeight exactly that! Thank you ☺️

I have been there too OP
DB no innocent party (not cheating) but she decided she no longer loved him, DB was broken about it and desperate for her to change her mind moved back with parents, she lied to all of us about there not being someone else involved and then magically when OM cooled off and her finances became clear she suddenly had post natal depression and all was forgotten.

They have lost people in their lives because of it but we as family were told in no uncertain terms it was his decision and he forgave her so we had to accept it. it has never been mentioned since but will never trust her again.

I understand why you want an apology I wanted to have it out with her too, the upset she caused to DB, her own kids, my parents were ill with the stress of it all as they bore the brunt of it financially, with the childcare etc but ultimately not up to us.

@GoEasyOnMe yeah, the thing is I know my parents would end up doing it, interest-free, never see the money again....

I think that element of things IS your business - your parents have obviously spoken to you about it and said they feel uncomfortable. You are a close family who all put your lives on hold to get DB and his DC through this and it's unrealistic for people to tell you to keep your nose out of that. Presumably her/their debts are accruing interest at a greater rate than the equivalent sum of money is in your parents' bank account (assuming they can actually afford it), so I would suggest they agree to the loan with an interest rate that is more favorable for SIL/DB but I would also suggest they do this through a "charge agreement" drawn up by a solicitor.

Ignoring your original post, as things have moved on....

"I'm just honestly not sure how that would go? The last time I saw her she was screaming at him telling him he was boring and driven her to other men...now we're all meant to sit as a foursome at pizza express and talk about the GBBO?"

I am not sure I could go out to dinner with her at this stage and if that is how you feel then just tell your brother. He has chosen to start again with her but you should not need to play happy families to make her feel more comfortable. You may choose to do it to make your dear brother feel better, in which case, I'd make it a meet up for a coffee rather than a meal, easier to leave if it all gets too much.

"I need to find a way of not making him feel that I'm shunning her but getting used to her being around again without wanting to throttle her!" Then make sure it is short and sweet and perhaps with others around too.

"I know I need to make an effort and completely accept that but he's suggested next weekend for a girlie shopping visit... I'm just not comfortable" If you want to have a good relationship with your brother you may need to do his but to be honest whether you do it or not is up to you. A girlie shopping visit is all about her and you, not your db. If you don't want to go shopping with her then don't. If she owes thousands in debts then I would suggest shopping is a bad idea. For me a compromise would be a movie that dh doesn't want to see, go with her to see it and quick coffee afterwards and chat about movie.

"The other thing playing in the back of my mind is my DB has asked my parents to lend them the money to pay off her gambling debts (£000's). They feel uncomfortable doing this as want them to work through some of these financial issues together and they can afford to pay off themselves over time but DPs don't want to appear unsupportive."

I'd advise your parents not to do this unless they want to do it. Also, if they do it, do it legally somehow with some sort of contract and how money needs to be paid back etc.

The money situation is your business because they are your parents and you care about them and your sister in law seems to care about herself. Maybe your brother is an awful husband, but maybe not. Either way if you think they are taking advantage of your parents then say what you want to say to them, it's a free country.

"I guess this is also affecting my attitude." Of course it is. The whole situation is shit. Your sil sounds awful and your brother sounds like a prize mug.

"I'm just finding it difficult to think about being friendly with her again but realise this is what my DB needs" If your brother needs you to keep sis happy then what does he think will happen if you do not play ball', will this drive her off again to spend money and date other men?

It's his choice to get back with her, she doesn't owe you an apology and you don't owe her anything either.

@SpringSnow I am wondering the same. I changed some of the key details and my username as some friends are mumsnetters. I'm wondering if I hadn't changed them, nor held back some of the detail, I would have for different responders.

Either way, I get the message about an apology and won't be pursuing it regardless

Just as much as it's not up to you to ask for an apology it's not up to your brother to try to force you all together on 'girlie' nights. You are not friends, you were nice to her as she was your SIL. You feel a bit less nice now but will be polite at family events. He's the one pushing this and I'd tell him to back off a bit and let it happen naturally. By Nov they might have split up again!

@Italiangreyhound Thank you. Wise words 😊

it's a hard one - your DB wants you to support him by essentially being friends with someone you don't like that's taking advantage (as you see it) of your DB and parents. On the whole, I reckon there isn't a basis for a proper friendship, so diluting the one on one time with SIL and doing more group things where it's at the level of chit chat is the right way forward.

You won't resolve or help DB if you did ever lose your temper with SIL (I can understand why you might) - it does sound as though she has quite serious mental illness to me, cheating and gambling additions both. I do understand it is hard to feel sympathy, I've a couple of family like this who've ripped their families up seemingly without being able to consider the impact on their children.

I think you do need to talk to your brother about his unreasonable expectations that you will all suddenly be besties again. Couples nights would be excruciating right now, and shopping alone with her is a beyond the pale expectations for right now. Actions have consequences, and he doesn't want her to face any! She has to earn the right for you to want to spend time with her alone and on date nights. She hasn't done that yet, frankly. You want to see how she's treating your brother and the children.

As for the money, your brother is nuts. Again, he doesn't want her to face the consequences of her actions. Your parents should NOT give them hundreds of pounds to clear her gambling debts. Where is the proof she's even stopped gambling? She should be working on sorting those out herself, with some input from your brother. Not your parents, HIS family. For all anyone knows at this stage, she wants them paid off so she can start with a clean slate ... and fuck your brother over again.

Tell your brother you're on his side but everyone needs time right now. You are there for him. You are rooting for his marriage. You are rooting for her relationship with the children, for their benefit. You hope she can earn everyone's trust back after her lying, cheating and vile behaviour. But for right now, you're going to stay a step back while they get their marriage back on track. You'll see how it goes. But you're not going to pick up from where you were before all the vile disclosures came out and pretend it never happened. You get time, too, to decide how close you want to be to her.

And strongly suggest to your parents that they don't give your brother the money right now. Maybe in a year, if all is going well and she's clearly genuinely trying, maybe then they should consider helping clear the debts by gift OR loan but now is too soon. THey're not your brother's debts, they're hers, and your brother shouldn't expect your parents to clear them immediately if ever.

I am a little surprised about some of these responses. Most of the time mumsnet wants to take all cheaters and burn them at the stake - it's an unforgivable crime most threads!

That is because of MN double standards. Here the cheater is a woman. If it was a man you can bet the responses would have been far different.

Perhaps she could get a weekend job to start paying them off instead of her swanning off for half of every single weekend.

The SIL is not going to get a job any time soon.

If it was a man you can bet the responses would have been far different.

Nope. If my BIL cheated on my sister I wouldn’t expect him to apologise to me. I wouldn’t play happy families at couples dinner or go shopping trips with him either though.

Just as I’ve said to the OP about her SIL.

So now the wife has cheated on her husband, refused to get a job to pay off her gambling debts and now wants OPs parents to give them money to pay the debts off?

I would have nothing to do with this selfish, pathetic excuse of a woman.

"So far I have been too 'busy' but he has now asked me outright what my problem is."

That's sadly hilarious, if he doesn't know what the problem is he does sound rather dim, or deluded.

You being her friend is not all about him. To be honest he seems to just want you to help her feel happy.

100% agree with mirialis

" I would suggest they agree to the loan with an interest rate that is more favorable for SIL/DB but I would also suggest they do this through a "charge agreement" drawn up by a solicitor."

Your parents may need that money for their old age, or for other family members. They would be really foolish to give this money to their daughter in law and son. Especially if you say your brother and his wife can afford it! There is no guarantee she will stay in the marriage or not run up more debts.

I would say that rather than everyone accepting this as normal (it's not) your brother and his choice to stay with his wife should not adversely affect the rest of the family.

How are the kids, are they OK?

In your shoes I would just continue to support my brother (especially for the sake of the kids) but not feel the need to renew the friendship with my sister in law unless I wanted to.

it's a more unusual thing for women to cheat though as they're typically more loss averse and do it for different reasons to men - poor judgment such as cheating/indiscriminate sexual behaviour in women is (at least in my family) prevalent in the women with serious mental health conditions.

The op has stated that the woman has realised she's got significant problems already.

Your last update was a perfect way to deal with it.
Tell your DH you are supportive of him and his marriage, but you need time. Relationships can't be forced like this, it could backfire as you may well end up feeling resentful being forced into spending time with her.

If it is your sister and BIL you are talking about (which it sounds like is the case) it is still exactly the same?

I'm not sure anyone has said SIL has behaved well or whether this is a great relationship (sounds doomed tbh) but the principle remains the same it is not your marriage or your buisness. Just support your brother (or sister) and stand by him whether that be staying with the partner or not, and be prepared to be there if it fails again. Ultimatley she doesn't owe you or your family an apology and you will only be making the situation more tense for your brother and his family.

You could ask your DB what her gambling counsellors think of other people paying off her gambling debts - I'm pretty sure that's enabling rather than helping her to feel the consequences.

Sorry, I think you should let it drop.

@greendale17 This is also my very blunt view of things! The problem is, if I do this and they split up (which I suspect will happen) I want my DB to be able to come and talk to us about it and not be in fear of 'I told you do'. Myself and DP have been very careful to vent to each other and not DB so he doesn't feel judged. As we all think this is a car crash waiting to happen and don't want him to feel isolated if things start to go wrong.

So I sort of need to suck it up and put my big hairy pants on, and make an effort with her