Do we owe Mil this money

[Whatjusthappenedthere]

This is not a Mil bashing thread as we get along fine, any difficulties in our relationship I am sure are mutual 😂.

Two years ago we decided to give up one of our cars. It was the one on finance and was hardly being used ( less than 4000 miles a year) DHs commute is quite short and very doable on his bike.
I need the main car for work and the children so it did mean he would be without a car most days but as we live in a town it was fine.
Mil didn’t like the idea at all. She likes to rely on DH for days out and some weekly errands. These are not essential needs as Fil has a car ( but works), she is not elderly or infirm and like us she lives on a really good bus route into the town centre. However, DH has a reasonable amount of time on his hands and doesn’t mind these requests for transport. He loves his Mum and is happy to help. They frequently go shopping together or have the odd lunch out.
So, seeing this potential “life line” about to be cut off Mil wanted to buy DH a car. She said it was because she worried about him commuting on his bike but we all knew the real reason (his brother has commuted on a bike for years and there was never any offer to buy him a car iyswim).
We declined the offer at first but she persisted and so DH found a little run around on line and Mil bought it for him. For the last two years it’s been used to take Mil on her trips and for DHs commute in wet weather and pretty much nothing else. Everyone happy as it seemed to be an arrangement that suited both sides.
Another recent change of circumstances means we really do not need this car anymore. ( to say what it is will be outing). DH can have my car to run Mil around anytime she likes so we have sold the car she bought and put the money towards a project we have been taking about for years. We have stretched ourselves a bit but honestly we just had a “life is too short / kids soon going to be too grown up to enjoy this new adventure with us. So we went for it a few years early than planned.
In the time we had the “run around” we taxed/insured/mot’d/serviced/changed tyres and fix a few niggles. All of which cost more than the original purchase price but hey ho.
Now the car has gone it’s becoming obvious Mil feels she should be given the money we received for it. It’s like the elephant in the room ever since we sold it. Comments have been made but no direct request for the actual money but it’s making me feel very uncomfortable.
I’ve suggested that DH just brings up the costs involved in running a car for two years that Mil has benefitted from. He says just leave it unless a direct request for the money is made. In the mean time I just hate the feeling this is being discussed with wider family members and we are being made out to look like CF’s.

So are we being unreasonable not giving this money to Mil. She’s had two years of free transport more or less on demand and will continue to do so for foreseeable future.
Final note, Mil is financially comfortable and not reliant on this money.

For the 'gift she didn't want' people:do you not think for big gifts you say:' honestly I can't take it!' And repeat until person takes it back. I'm honestly not being smart, people have done it for things much smaller than a car-you say it over and over again apologising and say you really couldn't. Nobody can force you to use a car!!

You should have paid her back yes.

You traded up your vehicle. She'll still get lifts.

Or does she think lifts in a campervan occasionally are beneath her?

NO YANBU!!!!
All the people saying to pay her back are clearly rolling in it. It’s family and it’s a Mother for crying out loud! It was a gift and it should be a damn gift!
I try to offer to drop my DM to the airport but she insists on getting her own way there if it’s a further away one. But your DH the doting son has picked up his DM and DF from an airport 2.5hours away. So a 5 hour round trip?
On what planet does she think she is to expect £400 back from a gift!

And I’m sorry but DH needs to get his head out of the sand and talk to his DM about this! Pronto! If they are this close then it shouldn’t be a problem bringing it up! He can always start by having a private chat with his DF first.
Just talk about it! And explain.
Maybe just say it’ll be a shame I won’t be able to buy the DCs any food for a month but here’s the £400 back from YOUR GIFT
Mic drop

She's had her value from it in two years of lifts. People who give gifts shouldn't expect any money back from them. It wasn't her car, it was your DH's, and if she thought of it as a loan, she should have made that clear.

However, I do think a conversation about it is a good idea. Your DH could say something like, "I just wanted to check now that I'm free to use our other car to give you lifts and so on, that you're okay we sold the car you so kindly gave us? We did appreciate it very much when we needed it."

@Stillnotready - still not reading?

The 1st car was already gone, so they were already saving, when the MIL decided she wanted to gift a £500 car. So, whether it was £5k or 10k saved, they were happy to make the sacrifice, before the 'kind offer.

Did MIL ever pay petrol? I might have missed this.

Honestly, I don't think you should pay her.

My parents used to help a very elderly relative a lot. They'd take her for days out, do work around her house and garden. One day she asked them if they'd like her armchair as she no longer needed it. They accepted and when they went to pick it up, she asked them for 100 pounds for it. My parents were very upset and eventually another family member intervened and told her that she had no right asking for so much money when they had helped her so much.

I'm guessing your MIL is older, so perhaps it's just a mind-set with her. Maybe, your DH could have a chat with FIL and explain all the money you spent on the car in the past and FIL could have a quiet word with your MIL. 500 pounds may not be a lot of money to some people, but to others it's a lot.

@faultymain my comprehension is obviously different to yours.
They gave up the first car, almost certainly to save money, MIL stepped in to replace, they did not refuse. DH got full use of a car, and only had to pay usual maintenance costs.
By the way, DH is a proper grown up with grandchildren of his own FGS, why on Earth did he accept a car from his mother in the first place?

Years ago my dm split up with her dp and had the car back she had bought (she couldn't drive). She gave me the car, only 3 yrs old. I ran her wherever she wanted when I could. Then my dsis died and I lost my job as had a lot of time off work. I sold the car as couldn't afford to run it without a job. I gave my dm the money.
I've just retired (early due to health) and am about to be given a pension lump sum. I will give my middle dd quite a few thousand to go towards a deposit on her first house as theres no way she will get a house for quite a few years otherwise and renting is wasted money. I will not expect anything back if she then decides to sell that house to upgrade. It will be a gift. So if its a gift I don't expect anything in return, except for her to keep up the mortgage payments!
So I can see both sides, but a gift is a gift and all you've done is upgraded the gift your mil bought your dh.
You don't need 3 vehicles.
If you really want to solve things just give her the money back (in instalments if necessary) and don't be so available for being her taxi as that's why she gifted the car in the first place, not really for Dh's benefit.
Give her the money and say it'll pay for a few taxi trips from the local taxi firm.
I think dm is the cf imo if she wants the money back, considering its cost you lots to run and maintain etc and she's benefitted from all that taxi-ing everywhere.

No, no no no no no.

‘MIL - please stop with the pointed comments. We sold our second car because we didn’t want or need a second car, nor to spend the money on the running costs. DH caved in to your repeated badgering to keep you happy, then because it was here, he occasionally used it for work, if it hadn't been here, he would have gone on his bike. You contributed £500 towards a vehicle, we traded up from ‘the banger’ to the camper van. The ‘banger’ cost us £1000, and that’s BEFORE petrol, to keep it on the road and we still have a second vehicle to run you around in. I fail to understand why you think we owe you the £400 we recouped against the £1000, (plus petrol), we spent’

She gave you £500 to enable you to buy a run around to run HER around. You’re still running her around. Which 4 wheels it is really doesn’t matters.

SHE is the cf expecting the money AND for not paying the running costs of the ‘banger’ taxi.

Screw DH not wanting you to say anything while she bad mouths YOU.

We did appreciate it very much when we needed it

THEY DIDN'T NEED IT..

You should have mentioned to her that you were going to sell it and why. If you were really concerned about paying for the up keep of the car and not just trying to justify keeping the money, you would have brought up the repairs when they occurred not after the fact as a legalistic justification. The car was bought for a specific purpose dispite,your belief as to why she, bought the vehicle. She should have been told and then ASKED if the money could be repurposed.

Just reading this through. Maybe someone else has made this comment, but isn't the point that Mil has still got her run around only it's not the same car. I don't understand why she'd want money back for something that helped you buy your dream camper van. Has she lost out in any way? Your other half has a way to get to work (what she wanted) and she still gets her trips out.
Perhaps just say that to her that on hindsight you should have run it past her that you were going to sell the car to help buy a camper van and you're sure that she wants to see you and her son happy.

Sfurness - they didn't use the money from the sale of the car to buy the camper van. They bought the camper van then sold the car. They used the sale money to help pay the insurance on the camper van after buying it.

Jumping in to say, people, Mil DID know they were selling the car. They TOLD her first. Ok as you were.
Op, it seems that the problem is not the selling of the car, but about not explaining to mil what would happen to the £400. So your DH could say this to her. "We needed to use the money to insure the new vehicle, so that we can afford to still give you lifts. But now we think we should have checked with you first if you wanted (some) money back. If you do, we will gladly return it, but it means we won't be able to give you so many lifts, as we won't be able to afford the extra petrol any more. The old car cost us quite a bit to keep it on the road.I'm sorry we didn't talk it through with you first, but what would you rather now, mum?"
Op, it could just be that she'd have liked to have been asked, rather than told. You sound like three nice people in a bit of a pickle, caused by failure to communicate. Good luck, and many happy adventures in your "project".

Sounds like a case for Judge Rinder, and I'm being serious here...

Do what Mousetolioness said, @ 11:38 yesterday.
With knobs on.
You didn't do anything wrong in my view, but, as you can see from all the differing opinions, it's not that straightforward for many.
Doing what Mousetolioness says gives you the higher moral ground, makes the repayment manageable, and gives MIL a long chance to reflect on the situation. She may well feel 'cheated' (even though she was not), at the moment, but this would show her your intention was anything but, and therefore stop all the bad mouthing, etc.
It gives both sides a good chance to achieve a win win I think.

If the campervan isn't insured, no-one's getting any lifts in it

she has had 2 years of chauffering for £500.
YANBU.
She should have laid out the "conditions" of this gift up front.
She provided the "capital" for this transport venture, but your OH provided the labour in terms of finding parking space for the car, petrol, maintenance and being available to drive her around - something you have said you will continue with your other car. She pressurised him to accept the car. It was her investment in her transport project, and she's already had two years benefit from it and you have said you will continue to give her lifts, so technically she hasn't lost out.
She is not in charge of how you organise your finances or how you live your life and if you needed to reorganise, after two years of providing the service, you have the right to reorganise how you provide it, if the original arrangements change.
If it was a lot more expensive I'd say yes return the money, but £400 or £200 a year for two years - I'd say you've probably covered that cost.
I'd put your case frankly and give her a chance to comment, get it all out in the open and squash all the talk you think this has generated in the wider family (none of their business BTW)

I might be reading this wrong but to me this isnt about the money or the car...its about MIL and control..she paid £500 quid to have you all on tap and on her beck and call when ever she wanted it...and you were daft enough to do it now shes thrown the teddy out of the cot on a passive aggressive way i.e whats not being said..and you are left feeling guilty about it...err ..However much you think of her why are you letting someone be so involved in making decisions about your family?She is eating into your life and your family time with her ridiculous demands of lifts /days out/lunches ..its just odd...pay her the money back and put it to bed and start concentrating on your family life not hers..shes way too involved its so not healthy...She should be having her own life sorting herself out of how to get from A to B its not your problem yet she has made it so by encroaching on your life...worth a think about ...she has no boundaries cos you have let her become too involved ..now you have to spell out your personal finances to her when is it going to stop ...way too much involvement she has in your life....

Of course it's insured - OP said they've already had four trips away in it.

Do not feel guilt tripped by posters on here into giving the money before even having a conversation with MIL about it. You don't owe her anything.

Mil bought the car as a gift for DH that she benefited from. She will still have her trips out etc.
I probably would of said to her that the car was going to be sold did she want the money from the sale. Chances are she might of said no.
But no I do not think you owe the money, it was a gift.
Just take the bull by the horns, make the first move and clear the air and have the discussion with the Mil.

@Stillnotready the MIL did not step in to help. She gifted money for a car. They used said car for two years and in so doing added expense that they were not going to have. Clearly they were happy with the expense at the time, then then upgraded their car.

At no time did the MIL say this is my car and I'm going to want it back when your done. In fact she managed to secure her rides and days out over a two year period.

The car is and never was hers, tinstar's analogy with the washing machine works well here. It was a Gift. You have no rights once you give a gift. Not on a hair band, not on a picture frame, not on a piece of furniture, not on a car and lastly not on a house. No matter how big the gift is, it's still a gift.

We can use words like 'courtesy', and say she 'should have asked', but informing her MIL is what they did, they didn't need permission, because the car was theirs. Her DH's to be exact.

For all those saying otherwise, don't give people gifts without explaining the conditions of your gift giving.
If MIL wanted to give a loan she should have said so.

why on Earth did he accept a car from his mother in the first place?

So that he could drive her around and help her. As the OP described upthread.

They had no need of a second car, this "gift" to enable DH to continuing transporting his DM has cost them money.

Don't pay her. You don't owe her anything. She wanted her own personal taxi service/chauffeur, which she got in the form of your DH. She got a bargain at £500. It would have cost her 10 times that amount if she'd had to rely on taxis and buses over the same period.

10 years ago I (well, DH and I) bought my mum a car. She wasn't keen to accept at first, but we (finally) convinced her it was totally free of any strings. She already had a car, but was saving for a new one as her then current car seemed to need one thing after another fixed on it and I got sick of hearing about it. We paid about 10,000 for it. If she sells it, I won't expect the money back, as it was a gift. Your MIL would be very cheeky to expect or accept the money back after all the benefits she's had from the taxi car.