Do we owe Mil this money

[Whatjusthappenedthere]

This is not a Mil bashing thread as we get along fine, any difficulties in our relationship I am sure are mutual 😂.

Two years ago we decided to give up one of our cars. It was the one on finance and was hardly being used ( less than 4000 miles a year) DHs commute is quite short and very doable on his bike.
I need the main car for work and the children so it did mean he would be without a car most days but as we live in a town it was fine.
Mil didn’t like the idea at all. She likes to rely on DH for days out and some weekly errands. These are not essential needs as Fil has a car ( but works), she is not elderly or infirm and like us she lives on a really good bus route into the town centre. However, DH has a reasonable amount of time on his hands and doesn’t mind these requests for transport. He loves his Mum and is happy to help. They frequently go shopping together or have the odd lunch out.
So, seeing this potential “life line” about to be cut off Mil wanted to buy DH a car. She said it was because she worried about him commuting on his bike but we all knew the real reason (his brother has commuted on a bike for years and there was never any offer to buy him a car iyswim).
We declined the offer at first but she persisted and so DH found a little run around on line and Mil bought it for him. For the last two years it’s been used to take Mil on her trips and for DHs commute in wet weather and pretty much nothing else. Everyone happy as it seemed to be an arrangement that suited both sides.
Another recent change of circumstances means we really do not need this car anymore. ( to say what it is will be outing). DH can have my car to run Mil around anytime she likes so we have sold the car she bought and put the money towards a project we have been taking about for years. We have stretched ourselves a bit but honestly we just had a “life is too short / kids soon going to be too grown up to enjoy this new adventure with us. So we went for it a few years early than planned.
In the time we had the “run around” we taxed/insured/mot’d/serviced/changed tyres and fix a few niggles. All of which cost more than the original purchase price but hey ho.
Now the car has gone it’s becoming obvious Mil feels she should be given the money we received for it. It’s like the elephant in the room ever since we sold it. Comments have been made but no direct request for the actual money but it’s making me feel very uncomfortable.
I’ve suggested that DH just brings up the costs involved in running a car for two years that Mil has benefitted from. He says just leave it unless a direct request for the money is made. In the mean time I just hate the feeling this is being discussed with wider family members and we are being made out to look like CF’s.

So are we being unreasonable not giving this money to Mil. She’s had two years of free transport more or less on demand and will continue to do so for foreseeable future.
Final note, Mil is financially comfortable and not reliant on this money.

So you sold MILs 'now unreliable and unlikely to pass the next MOT without considerable expense beyond it's worth' car to put as a deposit to the campervan, and in the process have relegated your better car to being at her disposal when she needs DH to take her out, or he can take her in the campervan and it still leaves you a vehicle if you need to go out when DH is out in the car/campervan with her?

Can't see you owe her anything? I'd just emphasise that you've upgraded the car for her benefit because it wouldn't pass the next MOT w/o considerable expense.

Such a hard one.

Legally (and morally) it’s your car to sell as it was a gift and not a lone.
The running costs are irrelevant.
What she needs is a Judge Judy to tell her to stop being so ridiculous and that it’s not up to her what happens with a gift.

However, if it’s causing a rift in an otherwise great relationship then for £400 I would give her the money back and be free of the hassle.

Loan not lone ffs

OP how much you saved by getting rid of car on finance is relevant, is that how you managed to save for the camper van?

I really feel for you. I think you can possibly get the result you wish for in this situation by doing the following...

Tell MIL you will happily pay her back the £400 and can do so in instalments.

I say do NOT pay it back in a lump sum. Pay it back at £36.00 a month. She doesn't need to have it back in one lump - she's not on her uppers going by info you've given.

That is 10 payments at £36 and 11th/final payment of £40.

£36.00 is a sum that smacks of being a considered and budgeted amount. Not an arbitrary sum like, say, £40 might sound.

This will do the following:

It will reinforce the fact that you budget/ have to consider your spending. You've given up things like council gym membership and no doubt other things too to achieve a relatively modest and reasonable dream!
You had earned the right to buy your camper van. You haven't been profligate - you seized the moment.

Each time you or DH hand her the £36 - and I say pay actual CASH not faff about with a bank transfer - you (without having to say any words) make a point of reminding her it's a repayment for loan/car - the gift that never was!

Bank transfers are silent - no witnesses - have no element of 'ceremony' about them and allow the matter to be swept under the rug!

The best thing about repayment in cash over 11 months is that her taking this 'magnificent' sum off you each month will be a regular and unavoidable reminder of this 'gift which wasn't a gift' for the better part of a year!!

Plenty of time for her to 'reflect' on things.

I think if the money was always handed over monthly and never a day overdue - even if a special trip over to MIL's house was required to ensure this - and if the handing over date coincided with a day when your DH was ferrying MIL around absolutely gratis, even better!

You might find MIL decides she doesn't need you to pay her back after all!

You might as well get a little wry enjoyment from this situation.

They only got the car because MIL insisted. They didn’t want or need a second car.

They agreed to it because it would help MIL out.

They wouldn’t have spent the £1400 if it hadn’t have been for MIL as the DH wanted and was happy to cycle to work.

It’s not rocket science!

Plus MIL still gets what she paid for, unending lifts just in a nicer car.

I can’t believe the selfishness of some people who think their children should be out of pocket for doing them a favour (that they were harangued into doing!)

Thank fuck my parents/in laws aren’t like that!

Mousetolioness .... I only wish I had the [ !

If you are convinced to pay back money for a gift that you didn’t need and were pressured into having and that cost you over a thousand pounds in upkeep and was given by someone who doesn’t offer money toward petrol etc despite knowing they are significantly better off that you, please repay in the way mouse suggested.

Do what mouse says

While technically I can see your points about the car being largely for her benefit and the running costs you had to pay, I think that doesn't change the fact that she bought the car and it would only be polite to offer her the proceeds of the sale. She might turn it down anyway, but feel better for being asked.

Presumably you wouldn't have sold it two weeks later and pocketed the money? I know it is different after two years, but not that different. Where would you have drawn the line.

I think it was bit rude/cheeky of you tbh. Sorry.

I kinda think you should have just given it back to her.

Oh ffs do not do what mouse says that will destroy your husband relationship with his mum. It’s not about the money it’s about not dealing with what the car was at the time and the costs involved

It’s about decisions being made without communicating. For a rock solid relationship there seems to be little in the way of proper communication

I know... I was smiling as I tapped away... but, honestly, in your shoes I'd find not just the - go Vegas, go

OK, have read a bit more now. You still have two vehicles and are still giving her free lifts. I assumed that had changed.

In that case I would have run it by her before doing it. Describing it has you putting some additional money towards upgrading the car that she kindly gave you. In that case I would be stunned if she objected or asked for any money back. But it would have been so much better to talk about it first!

Now it's all got a bit awkward!

What are some of you on?
THEY HANDED BACK THEIR FINANCE CAR SO THEY'D ONLY HAVE ONE. NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MIL. HAPPY TO DO IT!

THE MIL NEVER HAD A CAR.
SHE GAVE A GIFT
SHE STILL GETS LIFTS

PLEASE CHECK TINSTAR'S ANALOGY BEFORE MAKING UP THE FACTS. IT'S A GOOD ONE

Sorry for the caps

Describing it has you putting some additional money towards upgrading the car that she kindly gave you.

A chat saying this now to clear the air should still work. Maybe she’s got the wrong end of the stick?

During these lifts for MIL did you husband get family shopping, do banking etc. Was it solely for MIL’s use or did you and your DP benefit from the extra car. For what it’s worth I think people can be very cheeky regarding lifts

We will offer Mil the money, she will accept it I’m sure and we will pay it. I’m not a liar and those types of comments are just nasty.
I think that was in response to me, and I'm sorry my comment came across like that. I was doubting the integrity of the people advising you to offer to pay; I wasn't doubting yours.

you shouldn't make money from the sale of a gift surely?

Why not?

If I'm gifted some jewellery and sell at a profit. ..surely that's up to me.

I've sold gifts before.

Is it just because it's a car she was given lifts in?

What if you're given a phone as a gift and sell it. It's yours to do what you want with it. Would you need the permission of the person who gave it to you to sell?

My niece sold her prom dress (after the prom) that Dsis bought her at a profit... it was hers to sell. Unless Dsis said after the prom "I want the dress back."

I think the tax / insurance / petrol / servicing costs are irrelevant. You paid them on the original car. You will pay them on the van. You haven't ever charged for lifts and you're not about to start. So I don't think you can take them into account.

Costs I do think are relevant are any additional costs incurred from running an older car. Bangers generally require more upkeep than newer cars so I think it would be reasonable to deduct those costs from the £400.

Then I would offer a repayment plan you can afford. Not in a passive aggressive way. Just that it's not worth falling out over.

Alternatively, go with your DHs approach of just avoiding the subject and hoping it blows over. He knows how his family dynamic works, and it appears to work pretty well.

I really think your DH should sit down with his mother to find out if she has a problem and what it is. If it's the fact you have sold your car, she was advised 3 weeks before this happened and didn't, at that point, declare that she wanted it back, or request that some of the proceeds should go back to her. You do not owe her anything; she GAVE you something, you kept it for 2 years and then sold it. If this wasn't a car, would all the pps be saying the same thing?

Just be straight. Next time you see her, say “by the way, as you know we sold the runaround. It turned out not owing us anything because x amount was spent on tax, insurance, repairs etc so we broke even in the end. Just wanted to let you know as we would have passed any profit on to you had there been any”. Job done. She’ll be up to speed and satisfied that there isn’t any money in it.

The decent thing to do is to give her the money back.

It was a gift. It was in your OHs name, which reflects the same. You did the upkeep and she got taxi’d about. So, no YANBU and owe her nothing.