to ask if any parent is unenthusiastic about University as an option?

[SimpleMathsQueen]

The average student now leaves university with £60,000 debt hanging over his or her head, often for the next 30 years, with interest added. (In 1994 the average debts were £3,000, and in 2009 it was £15,000).

At the same time degrees, except for STEM subjects (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) have largely been devalued in the job market.

Finally, many colleges are overcrowded, anonymous places.

I'm a believer in lifetime learning, by the way. I just don't really see the point of 'university' anymore and think society's obsession with this at 18 is having a negative impact and narrowing young people's horizons ironically.

The unhappiest people I know at 51 went to RG unis! Then if they went into highly competitive professions they spent their 30s and 40s in high stress careers.

This is a really good point, and something that is not considered enough, imo. A lot of graduate careers are high-stress, long hours, and difficult to switch off from. And overtime is unpaid. There have been periods in my career when the hours I've worked have meant I'm earning less that my department's secretary, who left school at 16. I was always pushed very hard (immigrant parents, all the clichés are true!) to work hard at school, get A grades, go to a top university and get a good career. I did all that but, in my 40s, am exhausted, disillusioned, and my health is suffering. I would like to have a life outside of work, and not be completely stressed out all the time. If I had kids, I would be taking a very different approach to my parents.

@mere I come at it from a different perspective which skews my thinking somewhat. I'm not as concerned about those students whose background and education nearly always mean university is just seen as the next natural step. Students in this group who choose an alternative path to HE generally posess the social and cultural capital required to get a good job, apprenticeship or training program. Generally these students end up doing well regardless - successful careers, decent salaries etc.

However, when you look at students where university isn't seen as a natural progression due to class, race, gender etc it's a different story. A degree can give them that social and cultural capital required to get the good job and therefore the higher salary.

University can be a transformative experience but it's not for everyone. However, there are a lot of myths and negative press around HE at the moment which I think is turning people off the idea when, in fact, it would be the best option for them.

When I was a teen, there was a sense that uni was where you went to grow up. Spread your wings, meet new people, fend for yourselves without the grind of a daily 9-5. This is why I would love dd1 to achieve her dream, but on here that is absolutely rubbished.

Yes uni can be great for building independent life experience. It can also be a horrendously pressured environment. There is a lot of subtle bullying and undermining that goes on, especially in Cambridge where if you're poor and done from a council estate (like me) and go to the 'wrong' college you will never fit in.

I would have liked my DC to get the experience of uni but I wouldn't have gone had the cost been as it is now hence I completely understand their decision.

I've got about £30k of student debt - I graduated before the new fees came in - but I've never once even considered it 'debt'. It feels more like a tax that I pay for my education - it comes out before my wages are paid, I never see it, it's not like the bailiffs are going to turn up at my door demanding money... I don't get this worry that uni debt is this lifelong fear for graduates. Nobody I know even thinks about their student loans - I have one friend who complains that his repayments are high, but he is also on £75k a year salary and so he can afford to make high repayments. At my salary (much, much lower than that!) and most of my friends' salaries, nobody even notices the repayments. I forget about it until I get the yearly statement off Student Finance...

When I was a teen, there was a sense that uni was where you went to grow up. Spread your wings, meet new people, fend for yourselves without the grind of a daily 9-5. This is why I would love dd1 to achieve her dream, but on here that is absolutely rubbished.

I don't understand this post.
Is your DD's dream just to go to university? Just for the sake of spreading wings and make friends? Is that worth thousands of pounds (of debt)?

I don't understand this post

Why is that funny?

Because my post is totally clear, yes it's her dream to go to uni, yes a big part of that is to spread her wings and make new friends.

But this is exactly what mumsnet cannot understand.

There is definitely an air of snobbery around this subject. It can be as simple as some people may regret not getting a degree and some people regret getting one!
Your life doesn’t need to be defined by your job... being happy and content is much more important. Our household income is probably considered modest by mn standards (£90k ish) but we both have very short commutes (20mins max) very flexible jobs that we enjoy and a great work/life balance. Our mortgage is only £600 per month so we have a lot of disposable income and guess what? Neither of us has a degree!

Basically if you aren't at a RG doing ppe or medicine it's all a frivolous waste of money.

Very few people in RL think like that.

I have had delighted proud fb parents thrilled their dcs are doing photography, drama, sociology, sport, art, all at ex polys! Obviously none are on mumsnet!

Early on they have around 10% off the job study time during work hours

Re solicitors apprenticeship - they MUST have 20% of their working week off for study. Any employer that gives you less is breaking their training contract and using their levy illegally.

there's a reason that universities are increasingly the only landowners with any cash

The vast majority of universities have commercial mortgages actually...

Uni is not for everyone.
Tbh if I knew what I know now, I would have trained as an electrician or a plumber when I was young.... But well....
People shouldn't be pressured to go to uni. I know it's hard to choose your future at such a young age, but nowadays you can go and turn it around when you get older. Like myself and many others.

I admire people who trained in trade. It's a hard graft! I also admire people who went to uni and done well.

Basically we should all stop being bitchy about uni and non uni training and education and just admire people who are doing something with their lives. Because whether you are a solicitor or a plumber you deserve respect (unless you are a p*k) , because the path is not easy in either case.

Kids should be told that rather than "You must go to uni"

Sent too early🙄

If kids are sent to work and into apprenticeships or on work experiences in the fields which interest them, they can decide whether to go to uni later. It looks like it's actually less stressful when you are older. Probably because older students don't tend to write essay on a deadline day😂. And yeah. Ex-pollies are fine. I am about to join one.

@twistella your post makes me happy. The introduction of higher tuition fees means many people have stopped seeing university as a life experience. I understand it, but it's nice to see some people still think like that.

@Twistella I get you.

DS will go to university to get a degree in his chosen field. The sandwich course he has chosen includes a year in industry. He has also been offered a degree apprenticeship in the same subject but has chosen the uni route with my full backing. We see university life as a whole lot more than a means to an end and, while it definitely isn’t the right thing for all, it is right for him.

There are too many good kids out there with perfectly respectable degrees but unemployed due to lack of relevant experience. There need to be more opportunities for work placements and internships than are currently available and when choosing subjects students (with parents’ support) need to consider where their choices will realistically take them.

I have met a lot of people over the years in all walks of life, including lots who regret not having or taking the opportunity to go to university or with a chip on their shoulder as a result of not being educated to degree level. I have yet to meet a single person who regrets going to university.

And I am as anti-debt as they come but student finance is a different thing altogether for the reasons other posters have already given. More info here if anyone is interested.

Blaa, is right. If you have come form nothing univesrity is a very good bet to help you get on. Candida Crewe, writer, (who certainly did not come from nothing) wrote recently about her 3 sons' poor exam results and that they have not chosen university and one is going off to be a chef (another Times journalist has one son who has done that too leaving school at 16 I believe). Well that's fine if you have those connections and won't be chopping carrots for 50 years but not wise for most people without those relatively rich families or families with connections and who already speak well and can get on because of their general personal skills to fall back on.

(My children do not have student debt precisely because I did go to university, read law and have had a good career and always worked full time and I don't have a nasty stressful life. I have work I love that I largely do from home and enough money for my fairly modest needs)

I have degrees in history and computer science. I work in IT in a technical area. The computing degree gets me interviews, but I'd say it's the analytical skills from my history degree that I use more on a day-to-day basis, and interestingly, in our area, there are quite a few history graduates.

I think degrees are still useful - for most job vacancies at my company, you're unlikely to get through the initial filtering process without a degree, and we're not the only employer like that - it will be interesting to see how that changes with wider use of apprenticeships (though I think we only offer higher-level apprenticeships, so they should end up with degrees anyway, but it's early days for that.)

I do think that a lot of people go to uni just because it's the thing to do next, and it would be good for people to consider more options. It's absolutely right for some 18 year olds, and it's a requirement for several careers,but if you're there because you just aren't sure - probably it helps some people find something they love, but others will fail to thrive, because they're not there for the right reasons. But I also think that the opportunity to go to uni should be open to all who are capable of it - that doesn't mean everyone should go, but I fear currently that those from poorer backgrounds in particular are put off because of the potential costs rather than other reasons. I'm not sure that's good for any of us.

(Ex-poly graduate here - it wasn't even a poly at the time I enrolled.)

I was so happy to go to university (1996) but now I feel pretty sad about seeing the new set of students arrive every October. They don't seem to enjoy the experience at all any more. It is ALL about getting the marks not the education, its all about work and no play, its all about intolerable stress and mental breakdowns.

Given my role in an RG STEM department, I'm more likely to encounter students having serious problems than the average academic but it breaks my heart most weeks.

Because my post is totally clear, yes it's her dream to go to uni, yes a big part of that is to spread her wings and make new friends.

But this is exactly what mumsnet cannot understand.

Actually, your post wasn't clear, and your smiley was twatish, but I digress.
And it kind of pisses me off when people talk about MN as if it was one mind instead of many different people with different opinions. If you're on MN, then you also don't understand your DD's dream, surely.

There are many ways to spread wings and make friends that don't involve university.
University should not be an activity camp. It should be a place of learning and development.

@lwe but part of that learning and development is the opportunity to get involved in a wide range of activities. The students that get the most out of their university experience are those that embraced the wide range of extra curricular activities available. In many cases it will be these activities that make them employable.

I have encouraged my eldest to do a degree apprenticeship. They get paid while doing the company funded degree. It's a win for all parties. The company are guaranteed an employee for x years, the student gets a degree funded and a wage (normally between 10-15k a year) and they also get useful workplace experience.

I have extensive knowledge of FE and HE and I do think the HE market is becoming saturated. Graduate employment is a big falling market.

There are many ways to spread wings and make friends that don't involve university

Really? How? Work? I don't think so. Being the only teen left in your sports group because all the others have gone to uni?

The ex poly dd wants to go to will give her the option to learn a language, to do a sport that she loves with lots of other people who love it, to volunteer in an area that she's interested in, all while living away from home and hopefully learning some stuff too

I can't think of another way of doing that once you've left school.

I'm sorry you thought I was being twattish. Your post did actually make me laugh.

I went to university and graduated 5 years ago. I did a social sciences subject at one of the largest universities in the country (with a good reputation) and got a 2:i.

I have never worked in the sector that's most closely related to the subject I studied - I never wanted to as I knew my interest in the subject was entirely academic. I have, however, used my degree - because the jobs I've had afterwards have required a degree. I have never been out of work - I had a job secured before I graduated. I earn well above the national average in a job I enjoy.

What, however, was more important than the actual studying was the opportunities that arose from being at university - opportunities I wouldn't have had access to had I not been at university. In today's job market, a degree alone is not enough - there are hordes of people who get a 2:i or a First. What is important is what the student has done alongside their degree. I took up part time work (and eventually worked for the same organisation when I graduated, before moving on), I was active in a sports team, I volunteered... you get the picture. By the time I graduated I had lots to write on my CV. By contrast, one friend graduated second in his year with a first class honours STEM degree, and really struggled to find a good job afterwards because he'd done nothing but study.

Friends from school who didn't go to university haven't had the same level of career success, on average, as those who went to university. They're very often still working as receptionists and baristas. Those who went to university are, for the most part, doing well for themselves.

In essence, if your children want to go to university, let them - indeed, encourage them - but also encourage them to grab all the opportunities that university brings with both hands.