Email from school that I probably wasn't supposed to see - f**king livid!

[FidgetyFingers]

I requested a copy of DS2's (secondary) school record when he left there a few months ago. He has quite severe SN, NHS paediatrician diagnosed with his assessments taking place at this school.

Enclosed in the paperwork was an email from his form tutor, his form tutor for 4 years, to the inclusion manager, stating that I had been on the phone to her as I was very unhappy about detentions 'again' for minor transgressions in the scheme of things and 'that I expected special treatment for my son due to his 'SN'.

DS has severe learning difficulties with several other co morbid difficulties and never should have been in mainstream school anyway but there was no choice as I couldn't get him an EHCP.

I am so fucking angry as this proves they never took his SN seriously at all which they proved in the way they treated him!

I also found a copy of an email from said inclusion manager to all his teachers outlining DS's behaviour plan and stating that if he failed to get enough points, he would be excluded.

Same woman sat across from me in a meeting with the Board of Governors insisting that I must have been mistaken when I said that she'd told me this on the phone.

I am absolutely disgusted that such people exist and are in authority of vulnerable children .

AIBU?

The professional (in this case the SENCO) is responsible for forming a professional judgement using all available information. If, in my experience, a parent is over-anxious, and the SENCO asks me my opinion, they will get it. That isn't a decision of any sort. They still need to assess the child

The problem there is that realistically neither sencos or teachers are qualified to know whether a child has sen and their opinions on whether they do or don't can be very damaging. Many children mask in school and an untrained eye doesn't see what's going on and parents are told the child is fine. When school says a child is fine, parents are often prevented from getting the necessary assessments via the NHS because if there's no issues at school it must just be bad parenting! School won't get an ed psych in because they don't seen or recognise the relevant behaviours and parents have no where to go (unless they can afford private assessments which many do end up with). It's bliming frustrating as a parent. Especially when the mask finally slips at school and suddenly everyone believes what you've been telling them for all the years you were labelled an anxious parent.

MissContrary

I can see that it would be frustrating, but it isn't my fault as the teacher. Please don't shoot the messenger! I can only tell the truth when asked.

I’m finding it a bit baffling!

You have stated you are not qualified to identify SEN. Yet you are qualified to identify no SEN and comment upon it!

Claw001

That's because you are - still - struggling to see the difference between an opinion and a decision. I am perfectly entitled to give my opinion. You don't need to worry about me making decisions about SEN - not my job.

Mum is over anxious, is saying no SEN! Mum is worrying about nothing!

“Both the Guardian and the TES have recently published articles that included the statistic that 57% of teachers believe that SEN in schools is being misdiagnosed. Even worse, the articles then went on to reveal that “nearly two-thirds (64%) thought that some parents who have a child with a learning issue that could be addressed by a teacher are too quick to want a medical or psychological explanation, and 38% agreed that some parents who push for their child to be recognised as having SEN do it to help their youngster gain a competitive edge in tests and exams”

Some are making what is already an extremely difficult time for parents, even more difficult. Then complaining about not being able to meet needs!

Anyhow, we are going in circles! Let’s agree to disagree!

Many children mask in school and an untrained eye doesn't see what's going on and parents are told the child is fine. When school says a child is fine, parents are often prevented from getting the necessary assessments via the NHS because if there's no issues at school it must just be bad parenting!

And as shit as this must be, what else can school-based professionals do? If they observe a child, talk to their teachers etc., and they see no evidence of any learning difficulty or SEN, what else can they say to the parent other than, we see no issue here? If the NHS won't assess unless there are issues at school, that's terrible - because issues at home are still issues - but we can't blame schools for that.

Claw001

No, because you are a) telling me I am saying something I'm not saying (my saying a parent - not necessarily a mum - is over-anxious does not mean I don't believe there are any SEN) and b) telling me I can't express an opinion, when, actually, I can.

I have no doubt SEN are over-diagnosed. I firmly believe it to be the case. But that's not the issue. I still follow my school policies, sharing any and all concerns exactly as I am meant to. I tell the truth.
The decision-making happens elsewhere.

claw I know a parent that attributes her dc behaviour to several (self) dx of sn. And frankly it's downright offensive to anyone with those sn to suggest her dc is exhibiting symptoms in the type of situations she is referring to. Of course it should still be left to a professional to decide if there is a combination of sn outside those situations and somewhat indulgent parenting as a (failing) strategy. But if the senco asks the teacher should be allowed to respond eg 'I haven't witnessed poor impulse control or any signs of distress prior to the incidents with other dc, and in fact they all followed a pattern of being well planned and calmly carried out hours or even days after a perceived slight'

Not to mention that not all dc with the same sn, dx or suspected have the same struggles. And whilst every allowance should be made for those who do struggle with that area, it's not in the interests of other dc who don't struggle with that particular issue to presume they too should have the same allowances made just because they have the same sn.

I don't need any convincing that some teachers/ schools offer opinions that are utter drivel, and in some cases outright lies. However to then say the best solution is to ban/ ignore all teachers opinions would be like teachers suggesting they should ignore all parents, sn and nt, because some talk shite.

Not to mention that in the scheme of things the teacher has very little power. A teacher expressing a stupid opinion is only going to get away with it if the senco and slt are equally crap. And in reverse the teacher can offer the most accurate opinion of dc sn, and it won't make a crappy senco and slt act on it.

No not your fault at all pengwwn. It's a bit silly really as there's this statutory duty for teachers to recognise and report, but unless it's something blatantly obvious most teachers would have no idea about some of the indicators of sen as there's no specific training as far as I know? Plus there's so many, most are quite complex and of course every child is different and may present differently. That's why parents should always be taken seriously though and not labelled anxious.

I just thought I would mention it as its quite possible that teachers perhaps don't realise how much effect their opinions can have. If you get a decent health professional they wouldn't assume a child is fine because school say so, as they will know kids mask in school. But sadly even some health professionals are flipping ignorant and still say things like oh x can't have autism because they made eye contact so if school say x is fine you are instantly dismissed. Some parents can't even make it past a panel to see a pediatritian without school support.

And as shit as this must be, what else can school-based professionals do? If they observe a child, talk to their teachers etc., and they see no evidence of any learning difficulty or SEN, what else can they say to the parent other than, we see no issue here? If the NHS won't assess unless there are issues at school, that's terrible - because issues at home are still issues - but we can't blame schools for that

And that's fine if it's genuinely true. What's not fine is for teachers to express their opinion a child doesn't have sen and label the parents as over anxious.

Can I ask why you think sen are over-diagnosed pengwwn? I asked someone further up who said the same but they didn't reply.

A diagnosis is hard to get. Kids who undoubtedly have sen can struggle to get diagnosed. I don't understand why people think they are easily dished out. They're definitely not.

unless it's something blatantly obvious most teachers would have no idea about some of the indicators of sen as there's no specific training as far as I know? Plus there's so many, most are quite complex and of course every child is different and may present differently. That's why parents should always be taken seriously though and not labelled anxious.

Well, there is some training. These are the typical characteristics of this condition/these are strategies which might work, etc. I don't pretend to be an expert but nor do I believe I am so ignorant that I am not in a position to give a view.

It's also important to remember the differences between parents' and school: schools need to make sure children aren't struggling with barriers to learning and are given the support they need to access education. Parents' responsibilities are wider than that. It is fairly reasonable for a SENCO to conclude that, if a child is accessing their learning and socially appears to be coping well, they need to fine focusing their limited time on other children. In that case, the parent needs to take the NHS route, not the school-based assessment route. Because what is the SENCO going to be able to say, other than, we have no evidence of any problem?

MissContrary

I honestly think it is fine for me to express any opinion I wish, providing I believe I have fair reasons for that opinion. It isn't against any law that I am aware of.

thehog I totally agree, a teacher should report their observations of a child. Its a fact. I don’t agree that teachers should comment parents are ‘over anxious’. What is the purpose? Other than to blame the parent in some way.

Peng Let's forget, sometimes I am not even going to agree with the parent that an SEND need exists. Sometimes I am going to believe the issue is behaviour, or the issue is at home

This is the comment that sparked our ‘over anxious mum’ discussion.

MissContrary

It's a tricky one to put my finger on, precisely.

Partly, I suppose, it's just the sum of my experience: children I have taught who have exhibited certain behaviours or difficulties where SEN has been suspected, and have either been diagnosed or not, supported or not, but the difficulties have gone away with time (maturation) or with better teaching.

Or, again in my experience, the broad-brush correlation between children suspected of having or having SEN, and children whose parents - again in my experience - either indulge them massively, or don't support them in other, important ways.

Then there is the wealth of reading out there which suggests that certain disorders like ADHD are actually over diagnosed, particularly in some demographic groups.

It's just an overall impression. It's not based in anything incontrovertible.

Claw001

Yes, sometimes I will think that. Sometimes I won't. As I keep saying, I am entitled to an opinion. My opinion does not have the force and effect of fact. I am not the decision-maker.

And likewise, Claw, I am entitled to an opinion that my SENCO is wrong. I have been known to share that opinion with SLT as well. What I won't generally do is go behind the back of the SENCO to the parents, undermining them and putting myself in a very awkward position. I would have to be convinced there was a very serious problem to put my professional reputation at risk like that.

All I have been saying here is that this isn't something I am obliged to do.

Partly, I suppose, it's just the sum of my experience: children I have taught who have exhibited certain behaviours or difficulties where SEN has been suspected, and have either been diagnosed or not, supported or not, but the difficulties have gone away with time (maturation) or with better teaching

A well supported child won't show as many signs. The same can be said for maturity if a child matures and learns to cope better it won't be as obvious, but doesn't mean it's not still there or the sen never existed.

MissContrary

Of course it doesn't definitely mean that. But it might well mean that.

Can I add, that schools ( neither teachers nor SENCOs) do not make any medical diagnosis whatsoever. This is left to the paediatricians. Schools will be asked for advice/opinion/evidence but a diagnosis of ASD/ADHD/ODD is a clinical, not an educational decision.

peng All I have been saying is labelling parents as over anxious is detrimental and an irresponsible view to share. It taints opinions. It serves to blame parents. It’s dismissive and impacts on taking any concerns they may have seriously.

Claw001

I can't agree. Some parents are over-anxious. If I am dealing with a child who - in my professional opinion - is accessing learning normally on my classroom, and a parent who insists otherwise, and also is on the phone constantly about trivial issues, blowing things out of proportion, I am going to give the SENCO the heads-up that this may be a case of an over-anxious parent.

If you think that "taints" opinions, well, I don't know what to say about that. It just IS an opinion.

claw but that's just it. That statement would be a very fair opinion about the parent I mentioned. About other dc/ parents I know it would at least misleading, or even a blatant lie. But that doesn't mean all teachers should be banned from offering opinions because some are ill informed/ blatant liars. And ultimately the decision as to whether to pursue dx, what support is needed etc isn't made on the back of the teachers opinion.

Data protection requires that information shared by professionals has to be based on fact or opinions based on fact. Unless parent has a diagnosis of an anxiety related disorder and has given you permission to share that diagnosis, it is not a fact or an opinion based on facts!

Claw001

Again, you are conflating things. Saying someone is over-anxious isn't saying they have medical anxiety. I wouldn't say the latter - that is definitely over-stepping. But if someone is behaving in a very anxious fashion, then my opinion that they are over-anxious (assuming I don't believe there is anything to worry about) is based on fact. No DPA problem at all.