Email from school that I probably wasn't supposed to see - f**king livid!

[FidgetyFingers]

I requested a copy of DS2's (secondary) school record when he left there a few months ago. He has quite severe SN, NHS paediatrician diagnosed with his assessments taking place at this school.

Enclosed in the paperwork was an email from his form tutor, his form tutor for 4 years, to the inclusion manager, stating that I had been on the phone to her as I was very unhappy about detentions 'again' for minor transgressions in the scheme of things and 'that I expected special treatment for my son due to his 'SN'.

DS has severe learning difficulties with several other co morbid difficulties and never should have been in mainstream school anyway but there was no choice as I couldn't get him an EHCP.

I am so fucking angry as this proves they never took his SN seriously at all which they proved in the way they treated him!

I also found a copy of an email from said inclusion manager to all his teachers outlining DS's behaviour plan and stating that if he failed to get enough points, he would be excluded.

Same woman sat across from me in a meeting with the Board of Governors insisting that I must have been mistaken when I said that she'd told me this on the phone.

I am absolutely disgusted that such people exist and are in authority of vulnerable children .

AIBU?

Allington

Hypothetically they didn't or the teacher wouldn't be blathering on about the lights.

I have given the school every bit of information about DD. I have backed it up with info sheets from organisations such as Adoption UK, etc.

Is it so impossible for you to believe that some , not all but some, schools and teachers just don't care?

Allington

Is it so impossible for you to believe that some , not all but some, schools and teachers just don't care?

Strangely enough I know this to be true.

But in your hypothetical situation the parents still have other options than the teacher and could if they wanted/needed to stop their child from being on the trip.

Generally, the most obstruction comes from the LEA - and that is where from whatever perspective you come from - the frustrations of our mutual difficulties should be directed, and together.
I agree.
Sometimes we get contradictory information and support (e.g. 1 TA to a class to support 2 children because both need the support but neither attract the required funding to get one each so to make do we put 2 children with complex needs, even if they are competing, and 1 TA who has to do their best).

Generally, I find that running a more calm, traditional classroom works best overall as the constency and routine helps many children with SEND needs. That said, it's always going to be the case of trying to do the best possible job I can with the resources I have (so there really is no point a parent calling me up multiple times being rude and confrotnational because I will just forward it to a member of SLT saying 'Timmy's mum has contacted me again regarding X. I have already responded multiple times. Reasomable adjustments are in place. Please can you follow up?')

There's also the balancing act between what constitutes a reasomable adjustment. (E.g. I had a parent once be horrible to me in a meeting with SLT suggesting that school shouldn't sanction her son for assaulting me because that's just him. Apparently I should have allowed him to verbally abuse his peers and wander the room because he's expressing himself).

I won't ever back staff being rude about parents or children. I will absolutely help parents fight a crappy SEND system. But equally I will also be willing to say 'hang on this is unreasomable'.

I hold my hands up - in the very beginning when my son started to have difficulties at school - firstly I was very upset about it, I had no expectation of it, and I turned to the teacher (who was also the senco) and over meetings I outpoured every thing I could think of that could possibly be contributing to DS's behaviour - I really couldn't understand it. I felt lost - I thought the Teachers and HT were going to help.

As I also got to terms with what was happening I began to realize that my beautiful son had autism - it's really nothing a parent wishes for. Unfortunately, I turned to the wrong people for help (the Teachers who found my 6 year old a problem) - they didn't have the capacity to understand, they were ignorant of 'life' in many ways. Not all teachers and schools are like this - we were in the right place at the wrong time.

These were his teachers - I would advise any parent to not tell teachers any more than you have to; for my reasons as a parent and for pen's reasons as a teacher.

Get your advice and support elsewhere.

OK. Let's leave the hypothetical.

DD has had 3 full assessments in 5 years. Cognitive, executive functioning, psychological. Each at the request of the school (she is lucky, in one way, that she was failed so badly by the LA that they gave a generous adoption support package as compensation - still cheaper than long term foster care)

Every single time the teachers' 'opinions' have been shown to be totally off the mark. She does not have ADHD and need medication, despite the diagnosis of the very experienced (20 years in the job SENCo). It is not because I am an ineffective parent. She does not need to be in a special school.

This year's highlight was her teacher not believing DD was scared of her - after I explained DD was scared of all new adults because her early years had wired her to see all adults as unpredictable and not necessarily safe.

Ridiculous, according to the teacher, as she had never done anything threatening. She was unable to understand that to a child whose first years were characterized by neglect and abuse, every adult is dangerous until they prove themselves safe.

Hence my request, at the beginning of the last term last year, for DD to have an opportunity to spend time with the.next teacher to begin to get to know her.

Apparently it was impossible (and totally unreasonable of me to request it).

So, completely predictably, DD drove the teacher up the wall at the beginning of the year because she spent most of the day as alternating between spacing out and bouncing of the walls with anxiety.

But yes, every teacher is a put-upon saint, every SENCo knows best.

Dear Allington please look for another school. Please. You have adopted a child who could well have significant needs. If you haven't already please go to her GP and ask for a referral to CAMHS.

Many have been harsh with you here (also respect to you for braving it out here) and we're overlooking that you have 'adopted' your dd. You probably don't know her entire background and SS have pretty much left you to it I imagine.

Thank you Allington for giving a child in need a home. You know you will do the best for her.

Allington

But yes, every teacher is a put-upon saint, every SENCo knows best.

No-one has said this, in fact with the exception of one I think most have said entirely the opposite and this includes the teachers that are on here, myself included.

It is unfortunately entirely pot luck as to whether you get a school that will suit your child, even more so know that academies have come in to play and are staying.

Even with a school that does all it can for your child you will still not get everything that you want (or need).

I really wish you the best in this.

another poster has repeatedly misinformed those on the thread that a "teacher has a duty of care to refer parents to external agencies"

Assuming you are referring to me, no, I haven't. What I have said is that where a teacher is conscious that they are not meeting the SN of pupils in their class because there are not adequate resources available, the response of the teacher should not be just to ignore that situation, but to help the parent secure the assistance that is available by law. That would obviously include reporting the situation to the SENCo and discussing applications for extra funding and EHCPs, but it could also include referring them to the advice sources put in place by the government. That could be particularly appropriate where the SENCo is failing to do their job properly, and it would be rash to deny that that does happen. It would also be rash to say that SENCos are all fully trained oracles in all matters SN, given that they don't have to have the relevant qualification until three years after appointment. Further, as has been correctly pointed out, all too often they are led astray by inaccurate training by LAs. Given the clear emphasis in the Code of Practice on parents having access to independent advice support services, no school could lawfully discipline a teacher for making a parent aware of their existence.

What has been fascinating on this thread today is that teachers who have vociferously and repeatedly said that they don't know enough about SN, it's just not their job, etc etc, now say they know enough about it to decide when a parents' worries about their child are based in excessive anxiety as opposed to genuine causes for concern; and to know when poor behaviour by a child is down to SN or just because the child wants to behave badly. And I'm not doubting them. But the point is that you really can't have it both ways.

What has been fascinating on this thread today is that teachers who have vociferously and repeatedly said that they don't know enough about SN, it's just not their job, etc etc, now say they know enough about it to decide when a parents' worries about their child are based in excessive anxiety as opposed to genuine causes for concern; and to know when poor behaviour by a child is down to SN or just because the child wants to behave badly

Hold on. I did not say that.

I said I am entitled to my personal opinion. That does not mean I think I am entitled to "decide" anything. If my opinion is asked for, I will give it, just like I would give it in any other circumstance where it would not have negative outcomes for me. The problem with telling a parent I think someone more qualified than me is wrong and instead they should do X, is that it would have negative professional outcomes for me. The parent is also very likely to take my personal opinion as fact, which the SENCO isn't going to do. It isn't 'trying to have it both ways' - sometimes things aren't the same in two directions. I don't understand why you think a conversation between colleagues needs to be conducted along the same cautious lines as a conversation with a parent?

Allington
That sounds more to me like a school who need to do more training on early trauma and attachment training rather than SEND needs (in my opinion anyway).

BoneyBackJefferson
I agree, but school based threads are never without people trotting out the same silly lines about teachers thinking they are Gods or saints etc. It's really quite predictable these days.

We know that schools are over stretched, that mainstream are needing to deal with an increasing range of needs that they arent set up for (or particularly funded for). We know that on the ground Mrs Blogs will probably have 2 children with contradictory advice on how to run the classroom for them, plus another 4 who probably do need additional support ( But it's a nightmare getting them assessed). Add into that the highly able who need stretching and the 2 children with mental health issues who can't access CAMHS because they are deemed to not be at crisis point yet so aren't a priority, and you see a very different picture. Some schools are better placed to accommodate all of those situations than others. Some staff have strengths and weaknesses and that is inevitable given the sheer range of needs in a mainstream school. There are some SEND that I've not been trained in, because I've never taught a child with that need.

It's awful for parents and children when the system doesn't work. Equally, there needs to be some understanding that you won't always get your preference in a classroom (I'm not talking about basic SEND adjustments here) just because you and your child have said you'd rather do X than Y so calling up being confrontational doesn't get a parent anywhere.
It's about having professional dialogue.

Why are people having a go at Penggwyn? It's like shouting at the waitress because your meal isn't up to standard

multiplemum3

Indeed. And we all know how we feel about people who are rude to the waiting staff

Sorry to hear this OP but sadly what you describe is not uncommon. Until you’re in that position you wouldn’t believe it happens. I’ve found the whole school process with a child with SEN gaslighting as they have literally made me feel like I’m losing my sanity.

Guienne

On the thread we have had posters saying that teacher are required by law to refer parents to charities.

They aren't

On the thread we have had posters saying in the code of practice that teachers should refer parents to IASS.

It doesn't.

On this thread we have has a poster say that if we don't refer it is child abuse.

WTAF!

As for your last paragraph that is just twisting words so that it says what you want it to i.e misinformation.

Do I know enough about
Aspergers/ASD
ASD
ODD
ADHD
ODD
LAC
BESD
HI
VI
MLD
SLD
SpLD
CP
LDD
MSI
Physical disability
Dyslexia
Dyspraxia
PPG
MAT

No I don't, do you?

An example of how damaging a teachers opinion can be.

Some years ago pre-diagnosis (my son has Autism, for descriptive purposes, think ‘high functioning’) academically very able, high IQ, polite, extremely well behaved, very quiet etc.

He held it together in school and would fall apart once home. Quite common in ASD. My son would tell me why he was falling apart ie school related anxiety. I would pass this info onto school. As school never saw any of this behaviour in school, teacher concluded and wrote on school file, that I was ‘over anxious’ and my son had no difficulties. This info was shared with other professionals ie I was the problem. Therefore my son received no support in school.

School objected to my sons diagnosis. Over the years, schools have objected to my request for an EHCP. They have reported me to social services. All based on their opinion of ‘over anxious mum’! They were implying I was fabricating difficulties.

To give you some idea of how many difficulties my son has, he now has an EHCP and attends a specialist school.

Teachers were quite right, in sharing they had not observed any difficulties, that was a fact. They had no right to label me as ‘over anxious’ for expressing my concerns.

Claw001

I don't agree that they had no right to express a view. Unfortunately - and don't take this the wrong way - people do lie. We have had proven cases of Munchausens at my school. Doctors and social workers involved in protecting a child whose parent insisted certain things were wrong, but where, if emerged, it was (very sadly) happening in her head.
I agree that teachers need to be careful about expressing opiniona. I can't agree that they must always refrain from doing so.

We will have to agree to disagree peng

I think teachers have every right to report their observations of a child. I don’t think they are qualified to decide the cause.

For example if a parent thinks their child may have Autism and school do not agree, they should refer parent to appropriate professional, not decide parent is fabricating. ‘Over anxious’ is implying parent is the problem. If parent is fabricating or child does not have Autism, professional will decide.

Claw001

The professional (in this case the SENCO) is responsible for forming a professional judgement using all available information. If, in my experience, a parent is over-anxious, and the SENCO asks me my opinion, they will get it. That isn't a decision of any sort. They still need to assess the child.

Who will assess the child? If teacher/SENCO have decided child does not have difficulties and the parent is the problem.

Claw001

Well, like I said, as the teacher I am not deciding anything. I am contributing to the overall view taken by the SENCO. If a parent has, in my view, shown themselves to be over-anxious in their interactions with me, that may be relevant, it may not be. That is up to the SENCO.

On the thread we have had posters saying that teacher are required by law to refer parents to charities.

Where?

I've been looking at the judgment in the C & C case on disability discrimination and autism referred to upthread and which a number of teachers, here and elsewhere, have massively condemned. They appear to think that it says that autistic people cannot be expected to control their violence, that therefore teachers will not be expected to teach them because they cannot do safely, they will not be in classrooms with other children because it will be a safeguarding issue for other children, and ultimately they will be required to live out their adult lives in secure accommodation because they are dangerous. Alternatively, they seem to think the judgment will put teachers and pupils in danger because schools can't exclude autistic children with a tendency to physical violence.

Unsurprisingly, it didn't take long to establish that that is seriously incorrect. The judgment correctly notes that only some children with ASD have this tendency, and that it arises from things like frustration arising from an inability to express themselves, sensory overload, reaction to unexpected changes of routine etc. It may well arise from a failure to address their needs properly.

It was also pointed out that the decision cannot mean that schools have to tolerate violent behaviour at all costs or that they would be powerless to exclude children who show such behaviour. Schools still have open to them in an appropriate case the statutory justification defence, i.e. that the treatment complained of was a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. Also, the emphasis is on the need to make "reasonable" adjustments - there is no need to show that all possible adjustments have been made, regardless of cost or practicality.

The point is that each case has to be judged on his own facts. Under the regulation complained of, the tribunal would be prevented from considering whether, for instance, the conduct complained of would not have arisen had the school made reasonable adjustments such as obtaining and following the advice of relevant experts or using recognised strategies to de-escalate stress. Children in this category get punished all too often for the effects of their disability, and it is right that schools should have to account for their decisions if challenged in the same way as they do with other disabilities.

There has been a worrying amount of vitriol and panic-mongering about this decision on teachers' discussion groups. It really is quite concerning that some teachers feel it appropriate to comment on the basis of what is clearly outright ignorance of what the decision actually says. It does look rather symptomatic of the sort of approach OP complains of.

I think it’s an irresponsible view to have. Over anxious = parent is the problem, parent is fabricating. Unqualified judging parents is not productive, it’s not professional. It’s detrimental to the child.

It is exceptionally rare to encounter a parent with Munchausen. Far more common to encounter a parent with a child with undiagnosed SEN, who would quite rightly be concerned and not ‘over anxious’!

Guienne

Again, you are being very unreasonable. There is a very big difference between being unwilling to make reasonable adjustments for a child with a disability and being concerned about your own safety. Teachers aren't legal experts; of course they are worried that this judgement (whether or not it does) enters into law a precedent that means they have to teach people who are going to be violent towards them. It doesn't mean they don't sympathise with the children.