SIL has not vaccinated my nieces

[Pittcuecothecookbook]

My baby has been booked in for her vaccinations soon. I asked my sister in law, who has primary school aged kids, about the experience and I was flabbergasted when she said she didn't get their jabs. I can't quite believe it!

When I asked why, she said the risks outweighed the pros but she struggled to articulate what the risks were beyond 'potential death'. I said that that was also the downside of not getting the jabs too! She said she was persuaded when her friend said that the jabs couldn't be undone if her kids had a reaction.

AIBU to be shocked and quite disappointed about this? I'm not looking forward to it by any means, but the eradication of many awful diseases and protection against those still prevalent is surely a non negotiable?

When her kids don't get these diseases, she'll be vindicated but that will likely be because the majority have had their jabs rather than proving jabs were unnecessary.

I imagine I'll get over this - my child will be protected - but I'm just at hearing this news.

It is pretty shocking and disappointing when educated and sensible adults turn out to be ignorant and selfish parents.

I wouldn't be allowing any contact between the cousins and your baby until baby is fully vaccinated and covered.

Lots of views on this thread.
I just thought I'd add a few thoughts.
I think it's quite naive to suggest that people who don't vaccinate haven't done any research.
My child had a severe , sudden reaction to an 8week vaccine. It was terrifying and consequently I didn't vaccinate my children for years. I was frightened, unsupported by the medical community, and totally sold on the opinions of the naturopaths/ osteopaths I turned to in desperation to help my sick little one when all else failed. (Conventional medicine offered no help there, I saw dramatic , good results in naturopathic practice)
Later , all my children completed the vaccination schedule, but anyway.
In the time I was "anti -vaccine" for my own children, I was involved with many groups , here and on the continent , who didn't vaccinate. (Primarily I was desperate to find parents whose children had also had an adverse reaction to vaccinations- I felt entirely unheard and alone)
I've watched the children of these communities grow up now, so over 17 years or so I have a few observations. I've seen outbreaks of measles and whooping cough, I've seen unvaccinated children pick up diseases from vaccinated children. I've witnessed awful complications of measles , and whooping cough cases that have taken years to recover from. Often it was true that the diseases were not so bad at the time. But chronic conditions resulting as complications of the diseases are fairly common, sadly.
Often in 'communities'where people have chosen a more alternative lifestyle, it's easier for parents to take a longer period away from work to care for a very sick child. (I'm referring to raw fooding, communey/ Steiner type set ups primarily here) This can be ages for these diseases, really months and months.
Anyway... These are just a few thoughts . I don't think anyone who doesn't vaccinate is irresponsible , it's a really hard decision, particularly if you have experience of adverse reactions. But I think we're so far removed from the reality of these illnesses , it's tricky to make an informed choice. Certainly there are many anti vax organisations that pedal the idea that measles/ whooping cough etc in these modern times are fairly harmless. Also that children are magically strengthened with stronger immunity as a result of contracting these diseases. This might be true, I'm not a scientist, but really sadly , it isn't what I've seen.

One of the measles outbreaks in December least year was in my son's nursery and he'd had direct contact with the children in question. I was 9 months pregnant when I found out and due to have the baby in hospital the next day. I spent the morning before I was admitted to hospital to have the baby queuing at the doctors, having a fraught meeting with a GP who couldn't give me any answers as to the risks to my two year old and his older brother and to my unborn child. After speaking to Public Health England my just turned two year old had to have the MMR booster there and then (a year and 4 months early) to try and give him protection and I had to have a blood test which was rushed through to check I was immune (I was vaccinated at a time where you only had a single dose for measles so they were not sure if I would still have immunity). I had my baby at 4am the next day and only found out 2 hours earlier, when admitted to delivery suite at 2am, that I had immunity. Until that point I didn't know whether my baby and I were going to have to be separated from my other two children and husband until the incubation period had passed. The children in question who caught the disease had not been vaccinated. I have had to keep both children out of nursery throughout my entire maternity leave to ensure my baby is not at risk before she has her MMR jabs as she has suspected immunology issues. When people say vaccination of children is no-one else's business that is just absolute bullshit. Look at the impact those decisions have had on the last year of my life? The story could have been so very different for me if I had not had immunity myself.

@keepingfingerscrossed that’s an awful story. I hope you are all doing well and mat leave going ok with all 3

I don’t think nurseries should accept unvaccinated children.

Somebody choosing not to vaccinate their child affects the entire community. To say it doesn't is naive imo

Pikehau, my child is unvaccinated for medical reasons. Should she not be allowed to attend nursery or school?? She recently had a virus and came out in a rash which was immediately flagged as measles simply due to her unvaccinated status. PHE wasted hours trying to work out where we'd been that she might have caught it from and informing everywhere we'd been that pregnant women should get in touch with them. They weren't at all concerned about her actually being ill other than to quarantine her for 4 days from onset of the rash (which we did). 2 weeks later we got the results of her swab...negative...so wasn't measles at all.

If a child can’t be vaccinated of course they’d be exempt from any vaccination admission criteria. That’s how it works wherever such policies apply.

And surely as your child can’t be vaccinated you are especially in favour of the maintenance of herd immunity?

Yes Plimmy but what difference is there between my child and one who hasn't been vaccinated for any other reason? They're no more or less likely to have or spread any illness than each other. PHE confirmed to me that immunocompromised children can catch measles from recently vaccinated children due to the vaccine being live, so my concern is this rather than my daughter's contact with other unvaccinated kids.

"Yes Plimmy but what difference is there between my child and one who hasn't been vaccinated for any other reason"

The lack of choice on the part of the parent makes it a totally different situation.

It makes no difference to the risk (or not) to anyone else's child.

It makes a huge difference to the risk to the child in question though. That's why it's different.

Sorry, I don’t follow you Quibbled.

The greater the number of unvaccinated children the greater risk to all. Especially to your child and others who can’t be protected. That’s what herd immunity is about.

Which would you prefer: that your child is or isn’t given protection by others?

Oh, and for the record, what you’ve apparently been told about vaccinations, shedding and transmission is untrue.

I was told by PHE. You'd think they'd know.

Yes, you would.

And will you answer my question about herd protection?

I only posted in response to the person saying nurseries shouldn't accept unvaccinated children. There are many reasons people don't vaccinate and having experienced first hand the damage vaccines can do (rare or not) I cannot wish that on any other child. I respect everyone's own choice for their own family. Vaccinate if you feel you must, don't vaccinate if you feel you shouldn't or can't. That's my opinion, but you are entitled to your own!

OK. Fair enough. I just feel strongly that we should all play our part in protecting our own and others’ children from appalling disease, if we can.

It is true that the live vaccines can be transmitted to a person that has low immunity for reasons of been sick already themselves or those that cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons (immunosuppressed) as any live vaccine gives a milder dose of the disease to the person vaccinated.

So you are correct Quibbled

Why do randoms get to choose for me? I am immunocompromised. I'm too old to have had measles jab - had mumps as a kid, it was ghastly. No herd immunity in my area because of selfish idiots. Measles could kill me.
Why is that personal choice?

Quibbled why the ?

If one child can't be vaccinated and the other can but the parents choose not to, that's the difference. You can argue with the conclusion of the PP as to the consequences of that decision but that remains the difference between the situations.

There are consequences of the decision not to vaccinate. There will be consequences for the health of other people's children. Some would prefer to try to avoid that by limiting contact with children who could have been vaccinated but weren't, so those who cannot be protected can still benefit from herd immunity.

No-one is saying they legally have to vaccinate, they are saying that there are consequences in making that decision and perhaps it is fairer for the anti vaxxers to live with those (by excluding them from mainstream schooling where they could impact herd immunity) than forcing the consequences on the parents whose children cannot be vaccinated.

I think that's fair.

There are many reasons people don't vaccinate and having experienced first hand the damage vaccines can do (rare or not) I cannot wish that on any other child.

But wouldn’t the disease have caused the same (or worse) damage?

It is true that the live vaccines can be transmitted to a person that has low immunity for reasons of been sick already themselves or those that cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons (immunosuppressed) as any live vaccine gives a milder dose of the disease to the person vaccinated
There are almost no live vaccines used any more, only one I can think of is Yellow Fever, all the rest are fully attenuated (dead/virus particles).

Unless there are medical reasons, choosing to not vaccinate your children is nothing short of irresponsible.
Anti-vaxxer's will always claim to have done significant research - unfortunately that 'research' is not impartial and is heavily biased towards the anti-vaxx movement ( often funded by them - although not immediately obvious)

The simple fact is that, on balance, vaccinating is significantly safer than not.