SIL has not vaccinated my nieces

[Pittcuecothecookbook]

My baby has been booked in for her vaccinations soon. I asked my sister in law, who has primary school aged kids, about the experience and I was flabbergasted when she said she didn't get their jabs. I can't quite believe it!

When I asked why, she said the risks outweighed the pros but she struggled to articulate what the risks were beyond 'potential death'. I said that that was also the downside of not getting the jabs too! She said she was persuaded when her friend said that the jabs couldn't be undone if her kids had a reaction.

AIBU to be shocked and quite disappointed about this? I'm not looking forward to it by any means, but the eradication of many awful diseases and protection against those still prevalent is surely a non negotiable?

When her kids don't get these diseases, she'll be vindicated but that will likely be because the majority have had their jabs rather than proving jabs were unnecessary.

I imagine I'll get over this - my child will be protected - but I'm just at hearing this news.

www.snopes.com/news/2017/05/17/vaccine-study-autism/

It's been debunked - I just couldn't be arsed to post.

vaxopedia.org/2017/05/17/what-is-the-childrens-medical-safety-research-institute/

And this is what a real paediatrician has to say about the CMRSI.

But nothing I will say will stop you going to discredited websites and taking bad science as gospel, will it?

Well that’s no surprise from either of those websites .... of course they would say that

but like it or not it’s a very well respected study in many medical circles
Equally I’m sure they’d have a field day with the various studies you’ve linked to.

Real paediatrician? What like the real and practicing GP you derided on quack-watch?

Face it... this was never about having a debate... no dissent allowed, the science is settled apparently

From Snopes:

This study, with its suspect statistics and devil-may-care attitude toward methodological design, is a case-study in how to publish a misleading paper with faulty data.

It's pretty easy to find. No need for hours of googling.

Hence me asking to see a trully independent piece of research. Haven't come across one yet. This one is too small to be definitive however it does "suggest" a link between MMR and ill health. Would be useful to see a comparison between health of kids having had MMR and kids having had separate jabs...however these kids are few and far between.

Quibbled if you’re referring to the Marsden study, it wasn’t specifically MMR, just vaccination in general.. but yes one comparing single jabs to MMR would be very helpful too.
I don’t know of any official research that has used true placebos either

There is a polish study that compares singles and mmr, and there is the Honda study which compares autism outcomes before and after they stopped using Mmr in Japan.
Cathmidson
I was out having a coffee with my family. You study was retracted twice as well as being based on self reporting. There is also german study that has been misreported on antivax sites, which i will see if i xan find later. Unvaccinated children had more illness than vaccinated ones

Interesting but not surprising article on snopes
www.forbes.com/sites/kalevleetaru/2016/12/22/the-daily-mail-snopes-story-and-fact-checking-the-fact-checkers/#1b7e9647227f

Yes I expect every man and his dog tried to discredit that study ....

It's been twice retracted, now, Cath. What do you need - God writing it in the clouds?

It's completely discredited.

It won’t be a popular opinion but I think refusing to vaccinate your kids should result in an automatic referral to SS. Children raised by parents who will willingly endanger them because of misinformed zealotry could be in danger in other ways. That ought to be investigated once it’s known.

It’s discredited for several reasons not least small population size. That’s inherently the problem I mentioned upthread.

It’s impossible to compare unvaccinated children’s health as large groups don’t exist.

I found the Snope’s other issues with the study a little unsettling. That homeschooled children were less likely to be diagnosed with various ailments because they go to the doctor less in the first place. I frankly don’t believe that.

I vaccinate my kids but I really worry that people’s health is lessening and this is for many reasons of modern life, one factor being vaccines. I think there are subtle adverse effects that we are not measuring sufficiently.

Kiggs study

Is this worry based on any evidence, or just your feelings? Because by any measure, public health (and the health of children in particular) is vastly better than before vaccines existed. Smallpox and whooping cough used to carry if children by the thousands. Both are now virtually eradicated. How can that be seen as a lessening of health?

Haven't read that study Bruffin but the number of unvaccinated is tiny compared with the number of vaccinated, meaning much higher variation in the former. Also, many unvaccinated children ARE unvaccinated due to underlying health conditions. Were they included in the numbers of unvaccinated? If so, surely they boost the percentage of health issues.

MairyHole "name calling" isn't branding Cath a "liar" and Sue a "sock" then?

Right..

There is no evidence! That’s my issue.

Show me a large scale study of health of vaccinated and unvaccinated kids in the west. It can’t be done!

And our health is on the decline with far more chronic conditions/allergies and cancers. Much will be environmental/diet but how much is vaccines?

No one knows! The very notion is dismissed.

Rates of deaths from all these diseases were falling anyway in the west. I’m not even sure we can say what you have said with confidence.

Indeed @Missconduct... so if your body is producing ‘supposed’ excess amounts [of cholesterol] then it’s doing it for a reason... there is a cause ... the excess production is a symptom of an underlying problem the body is trying to resolve

Nope. The either have an inherited condition called familial hypercholesterolemia or the high levels are secondary to another condition like obesity or diabetes.

What causes high cholesterol?

Production of excess cholesterol is in no way an adaptive response to anything. Human physiology is shaped by evolution. Anything that kills you after you've past child bearing age has no effect on evolutionary selection.

The human body has many maladaptive responses. I'm reading a new book about all of the defects in the way human anatomy and physiology has evolved:

Human Errors: A Panorama of Our Glitches, from Pointless Bones to Broken Genes

It's highly misleading to think that every aspect of physiology is instructive of some larger theory. In this case were you supposing the high cholesterol product was a response to vaccination?

As per the study linked by Cath,,responses on health were reported by parents

I think parents who inject their kids with shit including shards of glass on the say so of pharmaceutical companies should be referred to SS.

Any of you au fait with the dodgy vaccine scandal in China? Read and weep folks with good intentions. The road to hell being paved with them etc.

Rates of deaths from all these diseases were falling anyway in the west. I’m not even sure we can say what you have said with confidence.

This can be said with complete confidence. Smallpox was eradicated in the 80s following a comprehensive campaign of vaccination by the WHO. For you to suggest it’s simply coincidental is just absurd and utterly unsupported by science.

And our health is on the decline with far more chronic conditions/allergies and cancers. Much will be environmental/diet but how much is vaccines?

Again this vague idea of health being on the decline. What does that mean?! Life expectancy has increased. Thousands of people no longer die annually from diseases like tuberculosis.

Cancer rates have increased because people now live longer. We also have higher rates of obesity and air pollution which contribute to cancer rates. What does that have to do with vaccines? Unless your point is that the people who used to die of TB are now more likely to live to an age where they get cancer instead in which case you may be right, but increased life expectancy is surely a measure of health?!

I think parents who inject their kids with shit including shards of glass on the say so of pharmaceutical companies should be referred to SS.

THIS IS FAKE SCIENCE

It wasnt purely self reporting

"The questions about diseases were followed by data collection on the basis of medical records in the vaccination card, about data concerning the administered vaccinations and the timing of the vaccination. The data were evaluated with regard to the STIKO recommendations."

HelpmeobiMN

Even as the cure rate continues to improve, the incidence of childhood cancer has been steadily increasing over the last few decades, from about 13 children per 100,000 in 1975 to over 17 children per 100,000 since 2007.

Nothing to do with us living longer.

bruffin
Surely that means aside from vaccination data it WAS parent-reported.

HelpmeobiMN

Source: curesearch.org/Incidence-Rates-Over-Time