SIL has not vaccinated my nieces

[Pittcuecothecookbook]

My baby has been booked in for her vaccinations soon. I asked my sister in law, who has primary school aged kids, about the experience and I was flabbergasted when she said she didn't get their jabs. I can't quite believe it!

When I asked why, she said the risks outweighed the pros but she struggled to articulate what the risks were beyond 'potential death'. I said that that was also the downside of not getting the jabs too! She said she was persuaded when her friend said that the jabs couldn't be undone if her kids had a reaction.

AIBU to be shocked and quite disappointed about this? I'm not looking forward to it by any means, but the eradication of many awful diseases and protection against those still prevalent is surely a non negotiable?

When her kids don't get these diseases, she'll be vindicated but that will likely be because the majority have had their jabs rather than proving jabs were unnecessary.

I imagine I'll get over this - my child will be protected - but I'm just at hearing this news.

"google SSPE ( a horrible encephalitis that hits people years after measles.) Rare admittedly but also not a nice way to die."

I had measles and so did everyone I know growing up. Never heard of this disease. Just how rare is it? About as rare as a plane crash or being struck by lightning?

You wouldn’t normally contract measles and mumps and rubella at the same time

Not normally, no. But I did - not rubella, but I did have measles and mumps at the same time.

Roald Dahl's daughter died of SSPE following a bout of measles, he was a supporter of vaccination as a result.

SSPE has a rate of 2 per 100,000 cases of measles. So yes, vanishingly rare as measles is so rare. Because of vaccination of course.

Epidemiology of Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis (SSPE) in Germany from 2003 to 2009: A Risk Estimation

The risk of developing SSPE for children contracting measles infection below 5 years of age was calculated as 1∶1700 to 1∶3300. This risk is in the same order of magnitude as the risk of a fatal acute measles infection.

"SSPE is a rare condition. It occurs in about 2 per 100,000 cases of natural measles. It is more common in developing countries because there is a higher rate of natural measles infection and less vaccination coverage. It is rare in Western countries where there is an effective measles immunisation programme."

www.encephalitis.info/subacute-sclerosing-pan-encephalitis-sspe

Apparently the chances of being killed by lightning are 300,000 to one but lots of people survive so the struck number is smaller.

runningkeenster, similar...as a kid i had measles and chickenpox at the same time. Then had chickenpox again at 14/15.
Ive also had whooping cough and mumps.
Terrible immune system.

"No-one who is pro vaccine in this thread has said there are no adverse reactions. They have said that the evidence is that it is significantly more beneficial to vaccinate."

When it is NHS or government doing the Rsk/Benefit analysis, they look at the cost: How much does it cost the economy when a parent look after children for two weeks during each childhood disease rather than going home? How much does it cost to look after the vulnerable & sick? How much does general vaccination cost? Considering the tiny number of children permanently affected by vaccines, how much does it cost to look after them for life? When you look at the numbers, it is clear that the government's calculation will show the benefit on a population level far outweighs the risk.

The cost we analyse is different when a parent considers her own very precious child. The benefit is not having the disease which might not be that dangerous when you have it young. The cost that just might be lifelong disability is perhaps not something parents are willing to undertake if the disease is not perceived as terribly dangerous.

Take Rubella. It is one of the mildest diseases possible when you have it as a child - "fever" so low (~ 37.5 C) that you barely notice it that goes away in a few days and a non-itchy rash that comes and goes in 24 hours. The only time it's dangerous is if a non-immune pregnant woman catches it.

So why would an informed parent take the risk of an adverse vaccine reaction to give it to their 1-year-old? Why vaccinate a girl against Rubella as a baby, decades before she needs Rubella immunity and risk waning immunity when she is pregnant (as happened to a friend)?

In reality, boys don't need to be vaccinated at all and girls should be screened as teenagers and vaccinated if they are found to have no immunity.

Ive also seen measles in action as my sister had it as a small baby..she almost died!! Its not worth the risk vaccinate is the only way to go.

"And my husband is completely infertile due to mumps - so I know how severe mumps can be!"

Mumps doesn't cause infertility in children.

Your husband must have had it after puberty.

"So why would an informed parent take the risk of an adverse vaccine reaction to give it to their 1-year-old? Why vaccinate a girl against Rubella as a baby, decades before she needs Rubella immunity and risk waning immunity when she is pregnant (as happened to a friend)?"

Because overall it leaves women at greater risk of contracting the disease in pregnancy. With childhood vaccination the disease can be eradicated altogether as it has been in the US.

The risk of SSPE is as stated but the risk of typical encephalitis is roughly 1 in 1000 and carries a 10-20% mortality rate as well as risk of long term CNS damage to those who survive.
www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=6370

Pneumonia is the biggest risk of measles, the NHS lists it as a "common" complication which usually means it happens in around 1 in 10 to 1 in 20 cases however most measles deaths are due to pneumonia.
www.nhs.uk/conditions/measles/complications/

There's a guide to various measles stats by the WHO which is available here
www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/measles

"Vaccines do affect the immune system - that is what they are meant to do. What else do they do? Is it the adjuvants? Isyhe immune system some how “lazier” If it hasn’t worked through measles and mumps?"

You should look up and read what vaccines are and how they work, if you intend to participate in this discussion.

Immune system works by recognizing certain parts of the microbes that cause disease. Vaccine is where we give the body the dead or weakened microbe that won't make us sick but will still make the body recognize it next time, making us immune to it without having had the infection/disease.

Immune system doesn't get "lazy" with vaccines.

Mumps doesn't cause infertility in children.

Unvaccinated children grow up to be unvaccinated teenagers and adults. If a baby isn't vaccinated and then he catches mumps during or after puberty then his fertility can be affected.

"Because overall it leaves women at greater risk of contracting the disease in pregnancy."

"Overall" is the way government looks at the health of a population, not how I look at the health of my only daughter.

There was absolutely no benefit whatsoever to her from Rubella vaccination at the age of 12 months.

"With childhood vaccination the disease can be eradicated altogether as it has been in the US."

It is not possible to eradicate a disease with a voluntary vaccination program.

"Unvaccinated children grow up to be unvaccinated teenagers and adults."

Only if they don't have the disease as children AND nobody checks their immunity before puberty & vaccinated them at that point.

"It is not possible to eradicate a disease with a voluntary vaccination program"

It has been eradicated in the Americas I.e. all cases reported there were from outside the Americas.

On an individual level, is it better for your daughter too be parasitic on the herd immunity of other children? Possibly
, yes, because it means she is very unlikely to catch rubella at all. Thankfully, most people don't think like that so we are able to maintain herd immunity on which your daughter is relying.

Sorry didn't mean to frighten people- SSPE is very very rare as PP said about 2/100 000 cases of measles, and happens 6-8 years after the infection, so adults who had measles as children are not at risk now. Classically historically it was teens who had been infected as younger children.

Anecdotally speaking, the unvaccinated children I know hardly ever get sick, so they would not be a risk to a vaccinated child.

"Why vaccinate a girl against Rubella as a baby, decades before she needs Rubella immunity and risk waning immunity when she is pregnant (as happened to a friend)?"

I guess the other point on an individual level is that not all pregnancies are planned. As rubella is very rare now (2 cases in the UK last year) and most people don't experience waning immunity (unlike other common vaccines e.g. mumps) she's unlikely to catch it later on if vaccinated as a child. So I don't see a huge benefit in delaying it really.

"It has been eradicated in the Americas"

As I said, eradication of a disease is not possible with a voluntary vaccination program.

Vaccination is mandatory for school age children in all 50 States of the US.

"most people don't experience waning immunity"

"Most" is not good enough, though, is it.

Most people who have measles, mumps, and rubella don't suffer any adverse side effects, if that's sufficient for you.

As well as rubella, chicken pox and slapped cheek are also supposed to be bad if you catch them in pregnancy.

So why don't we vaccinate against chicken pox - I know there is an argument about shingles, but it seems odd to me. Or it is just that the risk is massive for the unborn child with rubella and actually not that high with chicken pox?

And I'd not even heard of slapped cheek until my son had it as a small child and I caught it too. No idea of you can vaccinate, assume not.

Coyoacan I take your anecdote and raise the following one ... as I said in my earlier post I wasn't vaccinated against TB as a child and got TB (it's horrible as is the treatment), my nephew isn't vaccinated at all and got whooping cough as a baby - it nearly killed him.... both of us were a risk to ourselves and other people.

My own kids are fully vaccinated including for CP and have never been ill so really aren't a risk to anyone else.