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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

SIL has not vaccinated my nieces

999 replies

Pittcuecothecookbook · 12/08/2018 19:49

My baby has been booked in for her vaccinations soon. I asked my sister in law, who has primary school aged kids, about the experience and I was flabbergasted when she said she didn't get their jabs. I can't quite believe it!

When I asked why, she said the risks outweighed the pros but she struggled to articulate what the risks were beyond 'potential death'. I said that that was also the downside of not getting the jabs too! She said she was persuaded when her friend said that the jabs couldn't be undone if her kids had a reaction.

AIBU to be shocked and quite disappointed about this? I'm not looking forward to it by any means, but the eradication of many awful diseases and protection against those still prevalent is surely a non negotiable?

When her kids don't get these diseases, she'll be vindicated but that will likely be because the majority have had their jabs rather than proving jabs were unnecessary.

I imagine I'll get over this - my child will be protected - but I'm just Shock at hearing this news.

OP posts:
Quibbled · 14/08/2018 11:20

Plimmy really? How do you know this? I don't think "anti-vaxxers" are as stupid as you think. Many people you call anti-vaxxers are just concerned about the overload of vaccines given to tiny babies but are perfectly happy to vaccinate when their children are older. They still get labelled "anti-vaxxer" on here.

Quibbled · 14/08/2018 11:31

Also, if a rusty nail goes through your foot then you'd want to get a tetanus jab as the benefit outweighs the risk in that situation. It's a very different story vaccinating very small healthy babies for diseases they may never be in contact with, and have a very small risk of causing severe damage or death. People have a right to weigh up the risks of disease against the risk of vaccine injury for their particular child....and it's clearly a different risk for everyone based on health status and history of vaccine reaction. You can't just label everyone who doesn't follow the normal vaccine schedule an anti-vaxxer.

sashh · 14/08/2018 11:36

You aren’t blaming them equally. You don’t even mention your brother until later posts. At least own it and say you are blaming her because she is mum.

The OP is reporting a conversation with her sister in law. not her brother.

Plimmy · 14/08/2018 11:51

Quibbled. I was about to reply to your first comment and then you answered it yourself. Tetanus risk can’t be lessened by herd immunity. So tetanus vaccination rates have long been higher than other vaccination rates.

As to the balance of risk with tetanus v other vaccinations, you really give the game away. Other diseases are relatively rare because most parents are sensible and vaccinate their children. That’s exactly the point about anti-vaxxers hiding behind herd immunity.

You may well be unique by the way: someone who has to rely on herd immunity but supports anti-vaxxers.

The risk to children from being ‘overloaded’ is nonsense.

Quibbled · 14/08/2018 12:00

It's "nonsense" to you and you are entitled to think that. Why mock someone for having tetanus shots but perhaps avoiding other jabs? They don't label themselves anti-vaxxers do they? They can choose to have whatever jabs they like. There's no law (yet) in the UK to force anyone to have any jabs at all. As I posted before, I respect everyone else's choice. It doesn't make me an anti-vaxx supporter. I've never encouraged anyone not to vaccinate their children. I do what I feel is best for my child and I am sure everyone else does the same.

headinhands · 14/08/2018 12:11

It's true though. These sorts of threads, wether it's about forgotten birthdays etc, are levelled at the mother because in 2018 men aren't interested or are incapable of making decisions about such trivial stuff.

Plimmy · 14/08/2018 12:13

If you’re not an anti-vaxx supporter why are you standing up for those who could vaccinate but choose not to?

Almost all anti-vax comment avoids actively advising against vaccination. It just tends to recycle baseless fears.

Quibbled · 14/08/2018 12:13

And...I don't understand this business of "hiding behind herd immunity". I don't think that's their choice is it? You can't be unvaccinated and avoid herd immunity unless you go live in a 3rd world country or deliberately hunt down measles outbreaks etc... The active decision is to not vaccinate. I doubt anyone thinks "Oh, everyone else is vaccinated so let's not bother vaccinating our children.."

Plimmy · 14/08/2018 12:25

I doubt anyone thinks "Oh, everyone else is vaccinated so let's not bother vaccinating our children.."

That’s exactly what anti-vaxxers do, whether they think about it or whether they merely close their minds to the reasons for their freeloading.

MairyHole · 14/08/2018 12:30

"I do what I feel is best for my child and I am sure everyone else does the same."

By going against medical consensus, anti vax parents may feel they are doing the best thing but generally it is based on fear and misunderstanding, and may objectively not be the best thing. The post above about car seats demonstrates the point brilliantly.

Quibbled · 14/08/2018 12:33

Plimmy

If you’re not an anti-vaxx supporter why are you standing up for those who could vaccinate but choose not to?

Because we could vaccinate our child but due to underlying health conditions and family history there's a higher risk she could suffer a severe reaction and possibly die than the risk of her catching a disease like measles and suffering a severe reation or dying from it. If we lived elsewhere the risk might be different. I have no doubt that other people choosing not to vaccinate have also weighed up the risks for their particular child, or have experience of vaccine damage in a family member of friend. It's not a decision anyone takes lightly. We worry about our child catching anything serious, and do not for one minute think that she'll be fine just because everyone else vaccinates their kids....but the alternative (vaccinating her) could lead to a worse outcome.

Original poster
Pittcuecothecookbook · 14/08/2018 12:34

During the ensuing convo with my SiL, this was actually the justification she gave - if everyone else does it, my kids don't need it.

The convo was civil - she said she didn't see the point as everyone else is vaccinated and it can make healthy babies unwell/kill them. She said that herd immunity is not proven and she doesn't trust GPs.

Basically, she won't be convinced so I'm not going to bother, I'll just discuss with GP about risk to my daughter of seeing her cousins before she's fully vaccinated.

OP posts:
Original poster
Pittcuecothecookbook · 14/08/2018 12:37

Oh, and bro was at work again and not included in conversation. I asked what he thought, SiL said she hadn't really discussed it with him but that he was happy with the fact they weren't vaccinated...

OP posts:
Plimmy · 14/08/2018 12:41

With respect, when I said “could” it obviously meant “has no good reason not to”. You have a good reason. Which is why it’s so puzzling that you aren’t strongly in favour of vaccination for the overwhelming majority of others.

Since the risks of not vaccinating vastly outweigh those of vaccinating, to put it mildly, I can’t see a sensible argument for declining vaccination, in the absence of special medical reasons.

Quibbled · 14/08/2018 12:44

MairyHole I missed the post about car seats. What did it say? I don't think preventing injury by using a car seat is comparable to the issue of vaccination because using a car seat in itself can't injure a child, can it? Have I got the wrong end of the stick?

Plimmy · 14/08/2018 12:46

SIL said herd immunity is not proven?

Sheesh.

MairyHole · 14/08/2018 12:47

"I have no doubt that other people choosing not to vaccinate have also weighed up the risks for their particular child, or have experience of vaccine damage in a family member of friend"

Based on the misinformation spread by anti vaccine movements, I have significant doubts as to whether these decisions are being made on the basis of perfect information.

Your entire point is that parents can choose. Of course they can. That is not the same as saying that they should not face any consequences for that choice, including criticism where they act against medical consensus and so put others at risk.

MairyHole · 14/08/2018 12:49

Quibbled, yes the wrong end of the stick. It was a thought piece posted on page 7 or 8 about what would happen if a medical "expert" (let's call him Dr Fieldwake) published a study noticing a 100% correlation between the use of car seats and children with autism, and continues from there. Definitely worth a read.

MairyHole · 14/08/2018 12:53

Although come to think of It use of a car seat can cause breathing difficulties, so perhaps not an entirely irrelevant example even if it weren't just a thought piece!

Quibbled · 14/08/2018 13:05

MairyHole I can't scroll back to read it but anyone can post a theoretical ficticious story to demonstrate a point....but it doesn't represent reality. I don't think Andrew Wakefield's study claimed to have found a 100% correlation with autism and MMR did it? He suggested there might be a link and that it needed further investigation, and quoted other studies that had found links, not his own. He was approached by parents who thought there was a link and he tried to investigate it using a very small self reffered group. I doubt he ever claimed it was anything other than what it was.....but the fact a link was suggested was in itself enough to cause mass hysteria regarding the MMR.

Quibbled · 14/08/2018 13:05

*referred

BertieBotts · 14/08/2018 13:16

It's odd that she reckons she doesn't need to as everyone else does but then says herd immunity is not proven! I mean pick one or the other Confused - perhaps she doesn't know what herd immunity is?

I'm not a fan of lambasting vaccine-anxious parents with "stupid" and "selfish" angry comments. I do think a lot of them are genuinely concerned and afraid. It's a shame if people won't engage with those fears because most of them can be debunked. Vaccines aren't risk free but experts believe that the benefits (for now) outweigh the risks. At the point where this is no longer true, perhaps because incidences of a disease are so low that there is little benefit to a vaccine, a vaccination is withdrawn. It's not actually a big conspiracy, health organisations know that there are risks there, it's just that they've judged at the moment the risk of the disease is higher. As soon as the risks of the vaccine outweigh that it's stopped. It's why the HPV is only given to girls. It's not that girls matter less but there is more danger to girls from HPV than boys.

Mitzimaybe · 14/08/2018 13:21

Leesa65 Sun 12-Aug-18 20:08:59
I never had any

I am not dead.
___

But obviously, the people who never had any and ARE now dead aren't able to post on this thread, are they? If they could, they would be saying "Get vaccinated; I didn't and I'm dead."

Plimmy · 14/08/2018 13:36

I do see the point in careful discussion with genuinely anxious parents.

But the anti-vax ‘movement’ tends to operate as a disinformation campaign via the internet. Part of the strategy online is to hold up gentle comment as admission of risk.

That’s why I would prefer MN simply to ban anti-vax posts.

MairyHole · 14/08/2018 14:22

Quibbled, if you read it you will see the point it is making. Don't see the point of the rest of your post.