to be sick and tired of people being rude about our home?

[Breadsticksandhummus]

We (DH, me and 2 year old DS) live in a 2 bedroom flat in London. It's pretty small, but it's not tiny. It doesn't have a garden. We bought it four years ago, are not planning any more DC and have no plans to move. It's 30 minutes away from my mum's and we have a great support network in this area. DH's commute is quick and easy (I work from home).

So we are fine. We are happy. And yet I am SO sick and tired of comments (mainly from DH's family, but also from some extended members of mine and a few friends) about "poor DS" "not having enough space to run round" and expressing shock and horror that for the same price of this flat in London we could have bought a house outside London, constantly asking when we're planning on moving etc etc. Yesterday when MIL was here she said "oh this place gets smaller every time I visit".

I find it really insulting and upsetting. We've done it up nicely. We keep it tidy, clean and clutter free. DS has a nice home here with everything he needs. OK we have no garden but we have at least 3 or 4 lovely big parks within walking distance of the flat, a garden at my mum's and he has a lovely big garden at nursery which he goes to 3 days a week. I can't drive for medical reasons so being in London is incredibly convenient for me as I can simply walk or get public transport everywhere.

I wouldn't dream of visiting someone else's home and making such comments. Why do they do it?!

Of course anyone commenting on your home is rude, but this thread and the posts on this thread by the OP and a few other seems a bit 'stealth braggy.'

'Oooooh, everyone is making nasty comments about my 2 million pound apartment, in a fancy area of London...' It was never going to be a 1 bed council flat in a high rise block, on the 25th floor, in a shitty end of London was it? It was obviously going to be somewhere 'swanky' and 'trendy.' wink

Of COURSE London is a fabulous place to live with all its amazing opportunities and sightseeing and nightlife and theatres and all that jazz, if you are wealthy! But in reality, it's NOT that great for a lot of people who live there, as many people struggle to make ends meet, and many many people have had to leave/been forced out, because of greedy property buyers forcing the prices up.

In general, most people cannot afford to live there. Unless you are one of the very small minority of people who have social housing in the capital, many people will struggle to live there and have a good life there (and frankly, I wouldn't let a stray dog live in some 'social housing' areas of London.)

Unless you are on the low 6 figures, £200-250K, or more, many people could not afford to live in London.

The OP works from home and her DH works somewhere closeby (on a quick and easy commute,) so unless she is a famous writer or something, and he is a big city executive, I cannot fathom how they can afford a family home in a (supposedly) fancy part of London. Where even the shittiest little bedsit that would house just 1 person, is over a grand a month rent..

So her 'little flat' must be virtually double that. Many 2 bed flats (even in average areas) are £1700 to £2000 a month rent. To buy a 2 bed flat in a reasonable area - similar to where the OP says she lives, would set you back 1 to 1.5 million pounds. Out of reach for the vast majority of UK citizens.

It's like the bizarre set-up in FRIENDS, where no-one seems to work very much or earn very much (like Phoebe for example works about 3 hours a month) and yet they live in apartments in Manhattan, that cost (in today's money) around 2 to 3 grand a month to rent, or 2 million to buy.

When it comes down to it, yes London DOES have lots of things to see, and is a interesting place to visit, but it's over-rated as a place to live. It IS polluted, it IS over-crowded, it IS expensive. A few posters are pushing 'multiculturalism' and 'diversity; as positives. Not everyone sees these factors as positives. And yeah there are more opportunities in London than many other parts of the UK, but 100's of 1000's more people going for them.

Upshot is, yeah it's rude for people to comment and make snide remarks, but I agree that London is not that great a place to live - not unless you're really well off financially.

I like to visit it occasionally, (and used to live there some years ago,) but would never live there now. My aunt lived there from the mid 1960's to the late noughties (around 2009,) and said it was not the London she knew by the time she left and moved 100 miles north, for a myriad of reasons.

And although I don't think a child is going to be seriously deprived by having no garden, or the ability to pop outside to 'play' in the street, or the local village park (5 minutes walk away,) with their pals, I do agree with the posters saying that a garden is a big advantage when you have kids, and they will benefit hugely for it. I know people who have children in flats, and frankly, they hate it.

I agree with the poster @thesearepearls (even if she HAS been accused of being patronising,) that the OP has posted to get people to validate her choices and opinions, and is being arsey and sniffy with people who disagree with her. Which tells me that deep down, she isn't totally happy with where she is. Otherwise, she wouldn't be so defensive.

Funny how pearl has been accused of being patronising and condescending, when the posters accusing her of this are being just THAT with her, for daring to have a view that they don't agree with! confused (Comments like 'me and DH and our family and literally sobbing with laughter at pearl's comments!') Yeah right.... I am sure your husband is sitting there pissing himself laughing at the comments of some random person on MUMSNET who he doesn't even know! Comments that aren't even funny. But are just her opinions... wink

And to try and say that the inner city areas of London have the same wildlife and nature as rural areas/the countryside is just laughable. Urban foxes and pigeons are not quite the same as the fabulous and amazing wildlife you see in the countryside...

Oh and by the way, as I said, I have lived in London. For several years actually. (Before anyone says I am chatting shit!)

I also find it bizarre that a few posters are saying they have a garden and never use it.' I find that hard to believe tbh.

Didn't mean to post that twice. Not sure what happened. I have asked for one to be deleted.

To be fair though katelouise3 it's very hard not to get snippy and defensive when people keep making snidey remarks about your life. Especially when all you want is to be left alone to live it!

Sorry - katie, not kate!

Started reading. Getting more and more 😳 at Pearls posts. Have to be mums taxi to the teenager right now. Wish we lived in London, with a frequent bus service. That would save me a fortune in petrol and time would be my own.

I'll be back to catch up once I've done my motherly duties in a rural area with limited Sunday bus/train service.

We have a garden. Nobody uses it though except the dogs...

I like family life in London. Honestly I do. I sometimes wonder about cashing in and moving somewhere cheaper with more beautiful countryside which is quite an attractive proposition but only because I do have quite a bit of equity in my house. That's not meant to be a stealth boast. I know I'm in a fortunate position and I want to make the best of it for my family, which has plenty of other challenges at the moment. I do know I would miss things though and I do object to the idea that my children are suffering some awfully deprived life to satiate my own desires. I know there are many children living in poverty in overcrowded conditions. All I am saying is that a great childhood isn't dependent on a garden and a bedroom. Privileged children, which is what we are talking about here, though my family income is nothing like you have quoted, are able to make the most of wherever they live and there's an awful lot they can benefit from in London. The wildlife is not the same, that wasn't what I was saying. I said they are not suffering from a disconnection from nature. My dd2 goes to forest school every week, dd1 has been at forest camp every week and is going on woodcraft amcamp in a couple of weeks. We are going to the science museum this afternoon, the theatre on Wednesday and sailing on friday. I am not pretending that's identical to trout tickling and identifying owls by ear but the idea all London children are suffering and cooped up is offensive. Rural poverty is a thing too. I do a lot of work with the social mobility foundation and they've told us we have to extend our reach if we want to have greater impact because London aspirations, even in Tottenham and walthamstow and Tower Hamlets are already high.

And what makes you think you can't walk to a park in 5 minutes? There are parks all over the place. There are 2 within 5 mins walk plus an adventure playground. They all run free activities. We have had free tennis lessons, free chess lessons, free craft activities, free nature trails, free violin workshops, £1 swimming sessions and more this holiday. Also school and nursery are also 5 mins walk away so we have strong local networks. We have been helping each other out with childcare and school runs all year. Family life in London is different from single life in London. You can quickly build quite deep community links.

Oh I forgot the free athletics camp and the fact that the adventure playground is supervised and offers free holiday childcare.

katielouise
me and DH and our family are literally sobbing with laughter at pearl's comments
If you really want to upset a MN pedant, misquote by rewriting and changing the grammar. However, you're right, it was rhetorical to say that we were literally sobbing with laughter. We were just gently tittering.
I also find it bizarre that a few posters are saying they have a garden and never use it.' I find that hard to believe tbh.
Yes. They're obviously lying. Can't think why. We don't use ours either, but I'm obviously a liar because we weren't literally sobbing with laughter so you can't trust anything I say. Does wheeling the bikes across it count?
everyone is making nasty comments about my 2 million pound apartment, in a fancy area of London
I honestly missed the bit where she said it was a £2m apartment. She hasn't been specific about the area beyond SE London and proximity to Blackheath. If she's in SE23, it may be a £600,000 flat. If she's in SE3, it may be £800,000. West Norwood, you can still buy a modest 3-bed house for £750,000 if you're prepared to make compromises.
I know people who have children in flats, and frankly, they hate it.
So do I, but I also know people who have children in flats in London, because, as you rightly point out, London is overpriced, and they are perfectly happy with it. The whole point is that people are entitled to be different, and the OP's point was that her inlaws should not be constantly carping at her choices. That's not quite the same as posting because she wants people to validate her choices. But threads do tend to take on a life of their own on MN.

Pearl did not just point out the attractions of country life. She also said that nothing could compensate for their absence and city children were suffering.

Unless you are on the low 6 figures, £200-250K, or more, many people could not afford to live in London

So now you need £200k to live in London???

Someone needs to tell all the paupers on £60k they need to move out.

serbska
Apparently you also need £1-1.5 million to buy a flat in SE London a 15-minute train journey from central London now. Who knew.

Family life in London is different from single life in London. You can quickly build quite deep community links.

Agreed. You very quickly realise that with children, it’s why ‘village’ like areas are so popular.

I have a garden but it’s not big enough to play football or anything like that in it. It was good when the kidos were little for a potter around, but with an amazing park 3 mins walk down the road we would go there for a proper play.

The OP has been remarkably gracious. She has not tried to persuade anyone of the merits of how she chooses to live. She's only asked people to accept that she is happy with it. I use our garden but only for 6 months of the year. Given the choice between our park and a garden I would honestly choose the park. The garden isn't entertainment in itself in quite the same way. They still need company.

@MrsSteptoe it’s funny the misconceptions people have!

I personally couldn’t cope with city living, it’s too overwhelming for me and my kids.

BUT I do have a friend who lives in London and has 2 children who are always outside, always exploring and doing new things and are not missing out at all.

Different strokes for different folks and all that.

Ignore them OP. I grew up in central London in a flat very similar to the one you're describing. Had no garden. Really I rarely cared - loads of parks nearby, playgrounds etc. and benefited from the incredible location culturally (gigs, museums, events etc).

I'm not sure about this "fancy area of London" stuff either. Most areas of London are a mix of wealthy and a bit gritty. That's it's strength and its weakness, in many ways. But you don't live in London and expect not to interact with diversity and multiculturalism and if you don't view those as positives then you probably won't like London. And frankly London might not like you. That's fine - no one is being forced to move here. But you don't find half the number of posts saying how shit X town or village is to live in.

In the long post somewhere above the author - lol - uses the expression “chatting shit”. Reminds me of a Love Islandism.

London might not like you. 👍🏻

I have quite a big garden because I like it but the children never wanted to "play" in it when they were younger or even sit in it now that they are teenagers. As for feeling cramped, I think a 2 year old is likely to see the flat as a huge space however small it is. As they get older they may prefer to live further out of London's in a bigger space but you can cross that bridge when and if you come to it. If they have a large enough bedroom they will probably always be happy where you are.

We are getting this in spades at the moment - we live in Edinburgh rather than London but have one DD and number 2 on the way. In a 3 bedroomed but gardenless house.

You'd think we were bringing the kids up in squalor the way certain people go on...and on...and on...about how we need to move for a garden/bigger rooms/. Don't get me wrong, all of the above would be nice BUT we're in a ridiculously central location and both DH and I can walk to work in about 10 minutes. That's worth a lot to us as it means that we can spend more time with our DC. To get the 4 bed detached with garden that's apparently essential we'd probably spend the best part of an hour each way commuting once you factored in waiting for buses, sitting in traffic, etc.

I'm not sure how living in a lovely city centre and getting to see each parent for an extra 2 hours a day makes our kid(s) deprived but

There’s no winning with people.

We bought a three bedroom house with what we thought was a decent sized garden. It was classed as a started home when the development was built ( you walk through the sitting room into the kitchen/ diner and the third bedroom would hold a cot and probably not a bed) as it was the two of us and the dog. We are child free so no kids to into consideration.

It turned out that the garden was actually a third bigger than we thought due to an arrangement made by a previous owner so the damn thing is too big so I’ve spent all summer ripping out bushes cause I just want a lawn I can cut rather than anything more complicated.

Then the local nursery and the local school improved massively so we get two reactions - of course we will have kids cause look where we live or how dare we take a house in a lovely quiet area with good schools away from families.

Personally your home sounds wonderful.

This thread is annoying now. It never was a London Vs the rest of the country thread it was about letting people live the lives they want. I don't go to people's houses in the countryside and start doing a yokel voice or start asking where the non-white people are. It would be rude. And I grew up in the countryside so I know what my kids are missing out on and crucially what they are gaining by growing up in London.

This thread is annoying now. It never was a London Vs the rest of the country thread it was about letting people live the lives they want.

Unfortunately, @Mookatron, the nostalgic, Romantic ideology of children and outside spaces is still dominant: the country is seen as a morally superior option for families and urban spaces are incompatible with freedom or happiness. So those who are anti-London are going to be more vocal because they're more convinced they're right, whereas those who live in London (and who've grown up with the same cultural norms) are more likely to say "you do your thing, I'll do mine" because they're aware that they're going against the cultural grain. The whole thing is a massive bit of question-begging. It's gone on since the 18th century, we're not going to stop it now. Rousseau's got a lot to answer for, as has a lot of C20 children's literature (till about the 70s, anyway).