To take a job where I won't see my DC

[Peakypush]

More of a WWYD really.

I've been a SAHM for two years now. I had two DDs 15 months apart and finished a masters during that time which I haven't put to use yet. I have the choice to SAH indefinitely as we're in a good situation financially (not rolling in it but comfortable, mortgage free etc.) however - I'm so bored! I had originally said I'd like to stay at home until my youngest started nursery at 3 but on the bad days of tantrums and drudgery I want to cry at the thought of another two years of this... We live rurally so we're limited in how we can fill our days.

A friend from uni has sent a link to a job opportunity at her company and is encouraging me to apply. It's the type of opportunity I would have jumped at pre-babies. I got so excited reading the job description and felt a fire in my belly for the first time in ages. The downside is, with the commute, it would mean I basically wouldn't see my babies from Monday to Friday except for maybe an hour before bedtime. This makes me feel a bit ill.

I'm so conflicted. I'm dying to use my brain again and to have adult interaction but on the flip side I feel such guilt at even considering leaving my DDs to go to work when I don't necessarily HAVE to. Not to mention my youngest is still only 8 months old. I did look into part time work before but it's just not an option where we live - there's literally nothing here relevant to my field. So it would essentially be all or nothing decision.

Has anyone else been in this position or can offer advice? My DP is supportive either way but he thinks in another year - when my youngest is out of the baby stage and the oldest is at nursery - I will have more structure to my days and I may feel happier being at home. I think he's right deep down but a year seems like an awful long time away... I'm not sure what I'm asking really but would love to hear other people's experience. Do you work long hours during the week and is it a source of regret? Do you think your DC suffers? If I did this I would most likely have to employ a nanny as DP also works very long hours. Would it be awful to do this to our children when we have the choice not to? TIA

Tsk don't be silly now. Of course you can't both work and care about your children.
If you're a woman, that is. Working dads are fabulous and doing their best.

It is however disingenuous to suggest, as a number of pp have, that if the dc don't remember those early years that they are somehow unimportant.

The National Institute of Child Health and Human Development are carrying out an ongoing study into childcare and it's effects on children's development. This is a brief report about it, and there are of course pros and cons, one of the cons being that behaviour problems emerged even with those kids with high-quality care. As to why this is is still being looked at.
www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/200704/daycare-raising-baby

a parent can work and still be a good safe and consistent presence a good parent

Sure. But this (which is what we're actually talking about)?

a parent can work all of a toddler's waking hours 70% of their lives and still be a good safe and consistent presence a good parent

I'm not so sure. And that is what you clearly don't care about because you're determined not to acknowledge the distinction.

Be very careful of relying on us studies undertaken in us nurseries they’re not easily applicable to uk
Depends on The child depends on the nursery
Not all nurseries are the same,not all children are same or attend for same reasons
A lot of oft cited us studies are federal nurseries with high intake disadvantaged children

What always emerges in reliable studies,is good quality childcare whether delivered at home or in nursery produces +ve outcomes

Local authorities and health trusts use nursery to give children a +ve and stimulating environment. It is an intervention & treatment to attend nursery

"Be very careful of relying on us studies undertaken in us nurseries they’re not easily applicable to uk"
I'm not relying on anything, just sharing a study that is ongoing. Did you look at it? The care situations that families used varied, not just "federal nurseries".

"What always emerges in reliable studies,is good quality childcare whether delivered at home or in nursery produces +ve outcomes"

Can you cite these? The one I gave above acknowledges that there are many positive outcomes, but also a few negative. There's no point in saying it's 100% positive, if it isn't, that doesn't help anyone. But if you have a study that shows that, I'd be interested.

I work with children so I understand that some family care is very much lacking and that nurseries and other other agencies fill that void. I don't think however OP falls in that category.

I live in an area of London with a very high-proportion of SAHMs. I would estimate about 70% of women don’t return to their previous employment, though some retrain in more flexible work about 10 years later. The men are mainly bankers, lawyers, self-made multi-millionaires etc. In the cases where the wives have returned to work within the first year (I can think of a few cases of this locally), they have not used day nurseries but have employed nannies so the child could be at home.

When you’re out and about with your own kids at playgroups or in parks, etc, it gives the opportunity to observe the nannies doing their job, away from the eyes of the parents. No, I’ve never seen anything horrendous or negligent. However, the nannies tend to be Philippino or Eastern European and they gravitate in their groups for company. Nothing wrong with this as such, except that they don’t meet to socialise the children. They meet to have conversations in their own languages which is totally over the children’s heads. You see it most days - Polish 20-something women pushing bored, miserable-looking kids strapped in buggies round the parks while they talk animatedly about whatever. It’s the same at playgroups and in coffee shops. Where the toddlers in the playgroups tend to ask their mums to join in or watch them doing something, those with nannies don’t bother because even at that age, they know the nanny is not interested in the same way.

I’ve become friends with a few nannies over the years. They all slag off the families they work for to a greater or lesser extent, yet the families would never suspect this. The nannies all say they would not leave their own children with a nanny!

My DC used to go to a nursery playgroup from the age of about 3. It was 9.30 to 12 and you could drop them anything from 2 to 5 mornings per week. Some of the nursery staff used to do extra work babysitting, etc. They all moaned that they were paid a pittance - basically the minimum wage. It’s hard to be motivated by your work, no matter how much you live children, when you know you could earn better money as a cleaner. This is the reality of nurseries when you scratch below the happy-clappy surface of it all. They may have all the facilities in the world, but they are essentially holding centres, in my view. Fine for a few hours, but not 9 hour days. Even the staff came out overwrought and felt it was “overstimulation”. Also, they all said that the amount of paperwork and “logging” in those places is too onerous prevents you from focusing on the children.

If it’s all so over wrought and over stimulating it’s the wrong nursery

Go for job and if offered it ask if you can do part time/job share. That will be up to manager and HR not your friend. If more people with caring responsibilities asked maybe more would get. Imagine there’s another mum or dad looking at same job and thinking that be great if only i could do it part time. If you’re offered it and they say no then youve not lost anything but you’ll know what you want and can make informed decision. If it’s not for you then at least interview experience good for next time.

Lipstick

We'll have to beg to differ on that one.
To me giving a damn is wanting to spend time with your child, man or woman.
It has nothing to do with working and childcare.

I suppose you could say that parents who don't want to spend time with their dc are neglectful, so childcare probably would be the best solution.

I'm not sure anybody has advised the OP not to work, in fact in her position it would be a good idea.
Most people have said it isn't fair on children for both parents to work and have barely any time for their children.
There are possibilities for several combinations of hours and commutes in between the extreme of not working at all and never seeing your child.

It is a difficult decision OP and one only you can make, but can I give you my viewpoint?

My mother was in exactly your position when I was a child. She chose to stay at home and says it was the biggest regret of her life.

She loves us to bits but just wasn't happy.

I really wish that she had taken the opportunity she was offered.

BTW, I had no idea how she felt when I was younger, she opened up to me when I was in my 20's.

Good luck with whichever decision you make.

These threads always descend into "why doesn't your husband stay at home???!!!" I know it may seem distasteful to many, but I believe that (in general) mothers are primary caregivers. We are biologically and emotionally different to men. I carried my children, my husband did not. Of course I feel closer to them in a different way than he does. He's a great father but for me a mother and a father have very different relationships with their children. I appreciate that culture and society play a big part in this also, but it doesn't always have to turn into a feminist debate.

Besides, the OP has already said her partner is self employed and flexible working isn't a possibility. Many people seem to think flexible working/working from home is easy to come by.

How are husbands suddenly expected to arrange things with their employers so they can stay at home? If they've committed to something completely different and are on a totally different track? Not everyone is a GP who can just go part-time, or a plumber working for himself. What if you're a teacher? My DH is self-employed...and he would still struggle.

Many people seem to think flexible working/working from home is easy to come by
Yet it’s the most trotted our recommendation on this and every other employment thread
For mums,obviously
Dads are never advised to be flexible,work less,work at home
So as unpalatable as some find it the personal is political
And it’s not bitterness to have a dislike of inequality

Of course flexibility isn’t easy to come by, absolutely naive to think that - you get good at something, work your way in, and then you negotiate if a firm isn’t receptive upfront (although that is a clue about the company culture).

Of course there is a price and I agree not all jobs are doable part time/with clear limits but many are. That doesn’t mean flexibility shouldn’t be a goal for anyone with children, gender irrelevant, and the more men that start doing it the better for mothers in the workplace.

Phew...finally caught up on the whole thread. Seems to have descended into the regular MN SAHM vs FTWM bearpit (which is predictable but a shame...) but there’s some really good posts and suggestions in here, op, from both points of view.

In my pp I forgot to mention that I was in the “1 hour a day” camp (frequently less) several times along the way when the dcs were very little. For a few years we had an excellent, English nanny, which helped a lot. And I discovered that weekends are quite long, and even an hour (or less) in the evening, and 30mins in the morning, can we quite lovely if you focus on it. It did mean I had to get my head in the right place when I got home in the evenings so I was 100% focussed on the dcs until bedtime, but mostly I managed it.

Over the past 13 years I’ve changed jobs a few times. I’ve had gardening leave on full pay (3 months to enjoy time with dcs!) and various breaks between roles. I’ve become sufficiently senior and good at my job to negotiate a 4day week. And my dcs have got older and are awake longer.

I don’t regret “missing out” at all. My dcs are independent, polite, great fun and we have a very close relationship. If I’m away working for 2 weeks, they are fine, and we Skype every day. I’m bringing them up to be confident about standing on their own two feet, knowing that dp and I will support them, but not do things for them.

But...

DP works stupid, long unreliable hours but always pulls his weight when we are both home. It’s an equal endeavour as far as it can be. Yes, I take on way more responsibility for food, childcare, play dates, social stuff etc etc, but there’s loads of stuff he deals with that I don’t touch at all, and I never feel like I’m shouting into the void.

So you do need to be sure of dps support, and that he’s properly engaged - for example, dh will do his damndest to get home at least 3 nights out of 5 if I’m away, even if he has to carry on working afterwards.

Anyway, I’m clearly biased. But my dcs don’t appear to be suffering and I very much doubt I’ll be lying on my death bed regretting not spending more previous moments with them doing homework or watching them squabbling about whose turn it is to walk the dog. Feels like we get plenty of those already.....😂

I agree with pressuredip. You're asking for opinions...another opportunity will come but the children will never be at this stage again. As mothers we make sacrifices when we choose to have children. Well done to your DP for supporting the family so that you have choices rather than having to be forced to leave the children for financial reasons and well done to you for giving the children stability at this crucial stage in their lives. I hope it goes well which ever way you decide.

I’m sorry @fillybuster but I just don’t agree with ‘outsourcing’ your children. I could be an amazing mum for less than an hour a day but personally I think my DC need more than that. I guess it depends on your children, your experiences (my parents outsourced me and would totally agree with your views) your tolerances and your priorities. Takes a whole lot of people to make a world I guess 🤷‍♀️

And I discovered that weekends are quite long

I tend to agree with you WTFdidwedo. While there are obviously many exceptions for example my BIL is an amazing father and is a SAHD and I absolutely think he's doing just as fantastic a job as my DSis would. However he's one of very few fathers I know who I could say that about. In my situation if I wasn't the one looking after DDs I would actually rather have a committed, professional childcare worker look after them than my DP. I know how that sounds but it's the truth. He's brilliant with older children nieces, nephews etc. but it was evident from when we brought DD1 home from hospital that babies were not his strong suit.

It's clear from observing him that society and his upbringing have shaped his parenting style, but I definitely agree there's biological factors at work too.

I completely agree with you OP. Although I’m sure Lipstick will be along to disagree with me in a minute I think it’s important to remember that men having such an active role in their children’s care is a really new thing and many struggle with it. I do think, though, that we should do what we can to help them (assuming they want to be helped) in taking on that role. Otherwise we risk perpetuating the historical cream of the crop parenting where dads only saw the good parts of parenting, rather than the full experience which is grinding and hard. I guess that takes me back to my earlier post about the tension between what’s best for you and what’s best for them.

Don't take the job. It is not fair on the children to hardly see their parents mon-fri. Nannies are good to a certain extent but they won't give the same love as a parent would

And the Judgeypants Award goes to MisstoMrs

Honestly, “outsource” -offensive, much?

I don’t think I was rude about anyone else’s choices, but clearly you were unable to respect mine.

heartsease I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and clarify. What I meant by “the weekends are quite long” is that if you choose to spend the whole of the weekend doing family stuff, with the dcs, rather than anything else (like gym, hobbies etc), then you get a huge amount of lovely time together. Most of my SAHM friends spend the majority of the weekends away from their dcs, making the most of the opportunity to have some time alone. That’s all I meant.

It's worked for you filly and that's lovely. But you come across as smug and your polite, adorable children are not here as two year olds to say that they had such a swell time, you know? That's what I don't like. It's so one sided.

I wholeheartedly apologise for any smugness. Several pps have referenced badly run nurseries or nannies who don’t engage with the dcs etc, with all sorts of longer term impacts on social development etc I was trying to demonstrate that there are other outcomes.

Of course my POV is one sided...I think that’s the point. My dcs will happily tell you that they like me working, but I suspect you’ll tell me that that’s only because they think they have to say that. My dm always worked - the only thing that really bothered me (a lot!) was that she was never remotely interested in hearing about my day, or what my and dsis has been up to, when she did come home. As I tried to explain, I have tried very hard to make sure that isn’t something I replicate.

Anyway, each to their own.