To think that some types of 'western dress' e.g; high heels are as oppressive as the burka?

[malificent7]

Don't get me wrong; I have worn heels in the past in the dubious hope that they look 'sexy.' I have mostly ended up hobbling along at the end of the evening in pain and fed up, envious of those wearing trainers.
I do realise that women have a 'choice ' to wear garments such as heels, mini skirts and boob tubes but aibu to think that they are not garments of liberation but rather an over sexualised aesthetic imposed by the patriarchy.

I am not a massive fan of the burka and I do think that they have been enforced by the patriarchy for a different reason; to protect the modesty of the woman. I am very against the burka ban and I think Boris Johnson is a prick for his comments.

So both types of dress control women in different ways; the western dress to promote sexuality and the burka to hide it.

In short, women should wear what they want without government enforcement and comments from Boris and his ilk.

And before we talk about seeing women's faces when we talk to them and the obstruction to that that the burka causes; what about a full face of slap that many western girls embrace now?

I can see a ban imprisoning some women totally but do we shape what is right by what is wrong

Beautifully put, Cuppa ... important, too, to remember that the responsibility for any "imprisonment" lies squarely with those doing it

As I've said for years, I also agree about banning faith schools - and yes, that' ALL of them. Obviously it wouldn't stop children being sent for religious instruction at weekends and such, but at least there'd be one safe space - and one where they spend a great deal of time - where they could avoid indoctrination

oliversmummy

To be honest i keep hearing this on the radio from various pundits but if you live there and disagree totally accept that.

puzzled

100% and children need s robust educational free thinking place to learn and digest truths not an echo chamber of home.

Yes and agree all faiths. I also am dubious about home schooling although I know there are posters doing just this but I don’t want to see homeschooling taking a hold as it has in parts of the fundamentalists Christians in the USA. So home schooling of Muslim girls for example but that’s another issue

One of my adult students who came to evening classes in a burka/niqab, and only took the face covering off when our one man wasn't present, used to wear stiletto heels.

Indeed, Cuppa, though if I'm playing devil's advocate I'd say that, even with supposedly secular schools, it "only needs one"

I've mentioned this on here before, but I went myself to such a secondary school, who foolishly allowed an especially rabid staunch member of a particular religion to teach RE. Perhaps not surprisingly she treated this as an opportunity for a "recruitment drive", pushing her own religion and dismissing others at every turn

After too many parental complaints she was eventually moved, but for me it served to show that vigilance in these areas can never be relaxed

I think there is a misunderstanding when people say multiculturalism is working. I would say there are more than a few areas, not necessarily just in London, the powers that be deem that multiculturalism is working but on closer inspection these areas which are part of a bigger city are of only one specific nationality/religion and they are under the umbrella of being in London or a bigger city and because they are not ripping each other's heads off then multiculturalism is alive and doing well.

I think a lot of big cities work like that.

Multiculturalism works when people are rich enough and educated enough to enjoy multiple modes of self-expression. When choices are limited, religious identity can quickly become the sole meaningful identity available, hence its more reactionary and overbearing manifestations.

YABVU and your post reeks of virtue signalling.

puzzled

Agree constant vigilance and robust inspections are needed. We had trouble with your Trojan Horse militants in Birmingham with radical Islam and in my area my only choice of both first and middle schools were C of E.

So pissed me off as I don’t want Christian TAs with the local vicar trekking them Jesus is Lord anyone thsn I want imams loose in schools or the flat earth society!

Education should be about facts, debate and a place of safety from such nonsense.

user yes totally agree.

There are many areas of this country where tensions are simmering and it wouldn’t take much to boil over.

My son was at Stoke uni and could not walk down some streets without his Muslim friends. He would have been attacked. Equally the same in white areas. It used to be racial tensions now its religious I think

Multiculturalism does work. It's the few that ruin it for everyone.

Multiculturalism seems to work in schools, perhaps not so well in society at large, but schools are a good starting point

User
👏👏

Where are these areas that have all these multicultural people living in. Are there that many areas of white British/black British/Muslim/Indian/Jewish/Italian etc all living in one small area.

Not all schools have a multicultural student base.
I have come across several schools that may have started out as multicultural but gradually one culture does take over

London, that's where you will find all those people living together.

This is what I was saying. London is a huge city with many different areas where Muslims, Jews, Greeks, Indian, Chinese etc all have their own areas where they don’t mix with other ethnicities

Yes, and the majority of those people do mix, integrate and with passing of generation become more and more British. It's only a minority that don't and enclose themselves in their own worlds.

I have to disagree

In the Middle East, women are made to wear the burka / niqab, both by men in government and by a patriarchal religion.

In some western countries, women are forbidden from wearing the burka / niqab, again by men who make up the majority of most governments.

The burka isn’t the problem. Men thinking they’re entitled to control how women dress is the problem.

Yes, and the majority of those people do mix, integrate and with passing of generation become more and more British. It's only a minority that don't and enclose themselves in their own worlds.

I'm sorry to be rude, but this is so naive I could weep.

Mind you, I might have written the same ten years ago.

The same is true about the hasidic Jewish population of North London, or anyone who comes to UK and heads straight for a 'settled' ethnic-minority community - very few are here to become 'British'. I'm not sure this is even up for debate.

I think the debate is, do we expect them to adopt British values, or do we accept that people are coming here to establish their own satellite countries within the UK.

My friends stbexh is from a particular community.

He has been here for 30 years. His first job was in a shop owned by someone else from his home country. He now has his own shops.
In 30 years he has never been into a shopping mall, or bought anything from a shop that wasn't owned by one of his fellow countrymen.

He would only eat in his home country restaurants. His parents don't speak a word of English.

He has never attended a wedding, birthday party, christening etc from my friends side of the family.

He only has friends who are also from the same country as him
Whilst you might think he is integrated into the community because he will chat with you and ask about your family and have a bit of banter with you. You have to realise once out of the shop he would not mix with anyone other than his group of people.

You might work with people from different countries who because they chat and go out with you, you think they are integrated but they ultimately return to their community and rarely marry outside their community.

In friends case she believes he only married her because he needed a passport.

Ultimately if you broke London down into different areas you would find a city divided not a multicultural community

@ Oliver’s why did your friend marry him?

Yes, and the majority of those people do mix, integrate and with passing of generation become more and more British

Yes, integration and tolerance/mixing is obviously important. But do people have to become "British" (I'm assuming you mean what one "traditionally" considers to be British and aren't talking about citizenship....)?

Isn't it enough to be a law abiding citizen, pay taxes, be nice to your neighbour etc?

You might work with people from different countries who because they chat and go out with you, you think they are integrated but they ultimately return to their community and rarely marry outside their community.

Does the ethnic or religious identity of their partner or the people they're close to actually matter?

My friend bought into the banter when she went in his shop and he needed a passport. She realises now she was stupid and it has wrecked her life.

Friend was very young and naive.

I’m not convinced that London is an example of a place where multiculturalism is working in the sense it was intended- ie different nationalities living alongside and mixing with native Brits. I say that as a life long Londoner. See the Mayor of London’s Annual London Education Report 2017:

In inner London primary schools, 81% of children are from an ethnic minority (and 56% don’t speak English as their first language). In outer London it is 68% who are ethnic minorities (with 46% not speaking English as their first language)

In inner London secondary schools, 82% are from an ethnic minority (50% don’t speak English as their first language). In outer London the figure is 64% (37% don’t speak English as their first language).

Of course, British people can be of an ethnic minority. But not all of these children will be British and a great number of them will probably be first generation immigrants (supported by the fact that the proportion of ethnic minorities and speakers of other languages seems to have gone up so significantly over the past decade). So do these stats suggest that a significant number of white Brits have left inner and outer London? Is London actually becoming more segregated and less ‘diverse’ (in the original sense of the word)?

On a side note, should we be referring to certain groups as ‘minorities’ in London schools when in fact - collectively- minorities account for 8/10 students?

Here’s the link to the paper for those interested (pages 25,26) www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/final_epi_edits_design_final_gla_annual_report_2017_0.pdf

I agree DottySheep I think white British are a minority in London and probably becoming that way in a few bigger cities across the uk