To think that some types of 'western dress' e.g; high heels are as oppressive as the burka?

[malificent7]

Don't get me wrong; I have worn heels in the past in the dubious hope that they look 'sexy.' I have mostly ended up hobbling along at the end of the evening in pain and fed up, envious of those wearing trainers.
I do realise that women have a 'choice ' to wear garments such as heels, mini skirts and boob tubes but aibu to think that they are not garments of liberation but rather an over sexualised aesthetic imposed by the patriarchy.

I am not a massive fan of the burka and I do think that they have been enforced by the patriarchy for a different reason; to protect the modesty of the woman. I am very against the burka ban and I think Boris Johnson is a prick for his comments.

So both types of dress control women in different ways; the western dress to promote sexuality and the burka to hide it.

In short, women should wear what they want without government enforcement and comments from Boris and his ilk.

And before we talk about seeing women's faces when we talk to them and the obstruction to that that the burka causes; what about a full face of slap that many western girls embrace now?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/AMA/3333714-I-wear-a-niqab-AMA?pg=9&order=

Read this thread - not the OP’s posts, a poster called Candy. Then tell me that zero women in the UK are oppressed and controlled by the niqab.

It’s not all niqab-wearing women. But it’s definitely some. The reason we don’t see women like this or hear from them is because they are corralled into very tight communities and it is highly unlikely that many feel free to tell their tale even if they do escape.

Also - not once has anyone on this thread suggested educating men. It’s all about educating women. If women are in highly controlling cultures, it’s going to be really difficult to escape, no matter your education. Educate the fucking men who think this is ok - and then it will really be a free choice!

TooExtra that is really sad, and I saw that earlier on. It’s such a tough one, i know at least three women who wear the face veil, and they do it out of choice and initially their families were dead against it (but gave up trying to stop them). It’s hard, because how do you find the forced ones from the ones who choose to wear it?
I know not everyone is saying we should ban it, but if it comes to a ban, I think it would be very sad for women who will have their freedom of choice stripped. It’s such a catch 22 situation.

Like I say - an information/education campaign that certain types of behaviour (ie forcing women/controlling them/restricting their lives) is not ok. Make it crystal clear that people participating in this are abusive, whether they think it’s a religious imperative or not. Prosecute people using the domestic abuse legislation.

I wouldn’t ban it because for some women it is a choice. But we can’t allow women who are controlled to fall through the cracks.

I did reply to your post on the other thread. I’ve re read candy and her posts, just going to say, some trolls are better than others.

And domestic abuse also happens in white non Muslim homes as well. How do you know their husbands don't force them to wear particular clothes?

Yes, the idea of "if you and a man see each other you will obviously then shag, so cover up" is the mindset of evil domestic abuse, you're right.

1. We shouldn’t police what women wear. No MAN has the right to do that (or another woman, actually).

2. If you have a “but” go back to 1.

All other comparisons are whataboutery and irrelevant, but let’s take a few of them:

“But if we went to Saudi then we couldn’t wear a miniskirt”. Saudi is not the only Muslim country in the world. It’s a horrible, repressive regime. And there are enough countries in the world that restrict what you can wear in the name of religion. Try going into the Vatican in a bikini....

“It’s a symbol of oppression! They are being forced!” Then punish the person doing the forcing.

“Terrorists take advantage of them!!!” Errr how many terrorist acts in the UK have been done by someone wearing a niqab? How many have been done by a bloke with a backpack? Are we banning backpacks?

Boris tried to have his cake and eat it. What he said was indefensible, the comparison was vile and unwarranted. And being prefaced by a supposed freedom of choice comment is a red herring, does not get him off the hook.

In a recent large survey the majority of asians do not agree with same sex marriage or sex before marriage. Just heard this on the news. Is this homophobic? I'm confused as to what is and isn't acceptable to voice.

Sorry, but we do police what people wear. Public nudity is illegal.
In the same way I believe that people should not have the right to go about in public with their faces covered. To do so is to make themselves anonymous in a way that conflicts irreconcilably with their responsibilities and accountability as citizens.
The religious argument is a red herring. My case applies equally to hoodies, balaclavas and motorcycle helmets.

And there are enough countries in the world that restrict what you can wear in the name of religion. Try going into the Vatican in a bikini....

That’s a silly comment. Tey going into many places in any western country in a bikini. The Vatican won't allow men in swimming trunks either.
As do most restaurants, for example.
We cover ourselves with clothes in our society.
So, if you want to argue against face covering don't use the women should wear anything they want anywhere argument. Men can't either.

But who says all women believe in feminism?

I remember a survey where only 7 percent calling themselves that.

The term 'feminist' has been largely co-opted in the past five years, alienating earlier-wave feminists who would be focused like a laser beam on issues like the niqab but don't want to get mixed up in MeToo, trans rights, etc. Please don't misinterpret declining rates of women identifying as feminists as silence on this matter.

It sounds as though you work with a bunch of yobs, frankly.

Try going into the Vatican in a bikini....

Yes, it's such a drag that we can't do that.

What are you on about?

(Just for the record public nudity is not illegal in the UK - go and read some nudists' websites for the law on that; although if it might cause a breach of the peace it could be. The problem is if we get too many people who think even seeing someone's upper arm is dreadful walking in your vest top down those streets could become likely to cause trouble if we are not careful we might lose earlier gains).

Alma, people are free to voice views in the UK on lots of topics - you can read the passages from the bible about sodom and g and all the rest and say gays or those who are not born again will go to hell. However it is best to try to be reasonably polite about things rather than personal and then you tend to be okay.

In a recent large survey the majority of asians do not agree with same sex marriage or sex before marriage. Just heard this on the news. Is this homophobic? I'm confused as to what is and isn't acceptable to voice.

Are you on the right thread?

It's fine to not agree with same sex marriage or pre-marital sex - different strokes for different folks. It's the impingement upon other people's freedoms that is problematic.

Is the questions about religious freedom

Or freedom for women to dress how they please

We don’t truly live in a free country as we are determined by certain rules and those keep order and certainly for women keep us safer

I think as is the trend across Europe we shall ban the niqab/burqa probably not a full ban but the way Germany have gone banning from certain areas of work which I fully agree with the full face veil has no place in progressive societies

I am a feminist but I feel far more strongly about keeping women invisible in our society that supporting the few that choose to wear it they are other religious requirements that o feel strongly about that women may choose to go along with that I am glad are not allowed in this country

I totally agree with Enthusiasm and it is about educating the men or more importantly the boys.

If little boys see it as normal for their mothers and sisters going around fully covered then they will see this as a normal requirement for their wives etc.

We should break this cycle. Ban the face covering as said it had no place whatsoever in a western democracy.

It has no place anywhere.

As a Muslim British Afghan Woman (yes, you can identify as all three at once!) I hate the burka.

I hate everything that it represents in my home country, I hate that a country that was once bubbling with energy and so modern and beautiful was taken back thousands of years to the middle ages with the western created Taliban, I hate everything that THAT disgusting blue burka represents in Afghanistan and that it was a very repressive item of clothing that turned into a safety net for the women there.

But despite my hate for this item of clothing, it is very rare to see it in the west and those that do wear it here, usually do so more so because they wish to themselves rather than something that has been forced upon them. It is so embedded that people think these things are enforced on muslim women by the men, that women must not be free if they are wearing it, on the contrary, it's a decision they make themselves and view it as a freedom rather than oppressive.

Though I personally do not agree with the burka and niqab (essentially the same thing), that is my personal view, it is not my business to dictate whether they should or shouldn't be worn. It is such a large part of the control of men on women through the ages constantly being told what to wear or what not to wear.. Women can't win...Once upon a time they would be hounded for wearing too little, now it's a crime to wear too much...????????

Maybe we should stop turning on each other as women and support each other's right to wear whatever we want, whether it's a bikini or burka down the street...either way, it's no one's business...

Rum

I think your post is very important but it is my business as a woman when another person feels it is ok to cover their face in public. It’s not men who do this but women!

Why because it’s the belief that women should cover up to prevent them inflaming male passions. This ‘closer to God’ nonsense is being trotted out to mask the inherent and rank mysogyny.

As a British born woman in britsin I don’t want my sons or daughters to see this mysogyny being tolerated in this country.

By all means the scarf and long clothes but no face cornering. It’s not acceptable in a western democracy.

BIl is muslim, as his mother and sisters are, and he doesn't agree on wearing burka or niqab here in UK or anywhere else (if by burka you mean the taliban version of this item). In so many cases women are forced to wear them and are oppressed in many other ways, but this is never reported in the news; forced marriages happen in the UK in alarming numbers but nobody seems to raise their voice and talk about it.

Just because some women wear it as a choice doesn't mean there isn't a huge number of others who are unhappy in it. Those women don't have a possibility to come out and express their opinions and they are the ones who should be asked and listened to.

I totally agree with Enthusiasm and it is about educating the men or more importantly the boys

So do I, but doesn't this raise the question of who'll do the educating? A male who believes that women should be forced is unlikely to accept an alternative view from a woman in his community, far less from someone outside it. Very likely he'll considered them all disgraces who should learn their place - and as I've said, as a white female employer of largely muslim staff I had too much experience of this

That seems to leave the men, perhaps especially the more enlightened imams, but I wonder how many would be prepared to take a lead on this?

I honestly think we are loosing the next generations anyway. If you go to Blackburn or Rotherham or Birmingham,where I am,people live in sepetare communities, separate schools and live totally separate lives.

Younger people are becoming more ‘conservative’ and more divided than ever. Faith schools of all faiths should be banned years ago and uniform policy should be western style with no covering for anyone under 16!

Multiculturalism seems to have worked in parts of London although of course young black men have been sacrificed to their fate as they are only killing each other and the London liberal elite are blind deaf and frankly don’t give a shit about the north or the midlands.

Honestly I am very scared to see the polarisation in this country today over religion and of course Brexit. It’s not a happy place.

puzzled

Agree and I hope more imams would speak out.
I can see a ban imprisoning some women totally but do we shape what is right by what is wrong.

And Luton

m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2nlIfn8tNA

Multiculturalism seems to have worked in parts of London

Where?