To think that some types of 'western dress' e.g; high heels are as oppressive as the burka?

[malificent7]

Don't get me wrong; I have worn heels in the past in the dubious hope that they look 'sexy.' I have mostly ended up hobbling along at the end of the evening in pain and fed up, envious of those wearing trainers.
I do realise that women have a 'choice ' to wear garments such as heels, mini skirts and boob tubes but aibu to think that they are not garments of liberation but rather an over sexualised aesthetic imposed by the patriarchy.

I am not a massive fan of the burka and I do think that they have been enforced by the patriarchy for a different reason; to protect the modesty of the woman. I am very against the burka ban and I think Boris Johnson is a prick for his comments.

So both types of dress control women in different ways; the western dress to promote sexuality and the burka to hide it.

In short, women should wear what they want without government enforcement and comments from Boris and his ilk.

And before we talk about seeing women's faces when we talk to them and the obstruction to that that the burka causes; what about a full face of slap that many western girls embrace now?

And like her or not we have a female PM and a female head of state.

cuppa I don’t stand by and support women being forced to wear this. Just as I don’t think women should be forced to take leave from high flying roles.
I could be wrong, but I assumed Iran had a law stating women had to wear a scarf (no niqab)? They’re free to dress how they want, and usually the scarf sits further back on their heads so you can still see their hair.

What I don’t understand is, as females in a male dominated world, why can’t we stand by each other, when each one has chosen to dress as they want?
As for careers, well in fact I have met at least two GPS who wear niqab outside of work, a counsellor and two opticians...so not sure where the argument about the niqab stopping women comes from? Make it sound like a brain cell sucking machine 😂

cuppa you’ve completely misunderstood my points...never mind.

hannn I don’t think there is a single right minded person who believes women who are forced should be left to it. The only thing I’m trying to say, is why is choice a bad thing in this instance?

hannn the Asian culture has a lot to answer for...take a trip to India

I thought there was no religious reason for the burqa?

As I understand it, Islamic teaching is usually a matter of interpretation; it also has no central "authority" such as the pope to make firm rulings. So while it's true many have said there's no religious reason, no doubt someone, somewhere will disagree and instruct their faithful accordingly

Which perhaps complicates the issue a bit ...

No I didn’t misunderstand your post. You may be ok virtue signalling your liberal views but I am not. I am a feminist and belive it’s incredibly important that women are seen, physically, that they are able to take a proper part in the society they live in. To earn a living if they wish and to participate in every good thing men are able to.

If you cover your whole body and face you cannot do this.

I find it highly dubious that women choose this garment as they can hardly stand out against male family members or risk harm. In Britain we must stand by these women and allow them to take a proper part in society here. I would ban it tomorrow.

I don't see it as a choice when in a professional standard it's looked down upon to not be dressed to the nines with high heels and a skirt suit/hair done perfectly/makeup on etc.

*the verses you refer to I believe are the same ones used by the Jewish stating women need to wear the burka/niqab
*
A) No
B) Even if they were...so?

Your entire argument (if we can call it that) Lonely, is "other religions do it too".

Do you say, about men who have murdered their wives..."Oh well, plenty of men have done that as well"?

I live in a very diverse part of London and I have never seen a woman working in a niqab

Try going to some parts of Egypt; it's not just that you won't see ladies in a niqab working - you won't see them at all

I completely accept this is their country and it's not my place to suggest what they should do, but it's not always easy to sympathise with claims of poverty when they deliberately ignore the potential of half the population

Exactly, Puzzled. Exactly.

That's not to say liberal Muslims should not continue their opposition, but we do need to br mindful of the fact that fundamentalists can find justification in scriptures.

Who is "right"? Who knows.

Sorry....was referencing your earlier post.

Fundamentalists will always use scripture to justify any atrocious actions. We have to push back.

but if we allow this monstrosity of face covering to become normalised in britsin we are normalising and allowing the marginalisation of women.

We can’t do this for their sakes and for their dds sakes. Do we want generations of little British born boys to think that their mothers wives and sisters need to cover up?

It’s not acceptable in a western liberal democracy. It just shouldn’t be.

If I lived in a country where I was required to cover my face what arguments might I make in order not to wear a face covering?

Yes...but "pushback" shouldn't be "There's nothing Islamic about covering. It's a recent misogynistic invention". Because that's not true. Sorry, but it just isn't.

The Bible is full of dreadful injunctions (stoning gays, silencing women & murdering naughty kids) but we've reached a point where only a very few batshit nutcases would try and live by such rules. Nobody tries to pretend that the bible doesn't say what it in fact does say - it tends to be dismissed as "different times, written by fallible humans but still holy in the bits that matter".

Why can't Islam accept that about their own books? Currently, it largely doesn't. And that's a huge problem. Shortsighted to pretend that it's not.

Burqa/niqab was designed to keep women in cloth chains women were forced to wear it so when they were transported to market to sell no one could tell who the virgins were - tragically has been used in recent years by Isis

Heels/tight clothing may be forced on women as is frunpy clothing by abusive men but it’s a form of clothing that was never designed to control and keep women from having an identity

There is no comparison

The Bible and The Koran are very different

The Koran is the direct word of God not a collection of stories it won’t be rewritten. There are slight differences in interpretation but they differ more from the Hadiths

Hi banana, I just wanted to add my 2pence
The Islamic faith has a lot of different sects interpreting things slightly differently/different opinions etc.
The Quran is not used alone (except by extremists who quote out of context for their own stupidity), and therefore is used in conjunction with the Sunnah and Hadith. Sunnah is what is believed to have been done by the Prophet Muhammed and Hadith are narrations by those around at that time.
This is the reason you will find people praying slightly differently, or a small sect who believe the niqab is mandatory and so on.
The usual form, is if you do not understand how a ruling works, or why it is as it is, or cannot fathom the verses plus Hadith you are supposed to contact a reliable scholar and not make your own rules.

Enthusiasm, I can’t comment on the similarities or differences, but I believe the same 23 prophets and messengers are mentioned in both with the same stories (or very similar).

Bicycle you would present those forcing you will all the scholarly evidence of this not being mandatory. Al Azhar university in Egypt, which is meant to be one of the leading teachers of Islam, banned the wearing of niqab in classes a few years ago.

Some places ban it as they try to move the people away from the sect that prescribes it as a must.

I'm watching the European athletics. No face coverings, Just strong women powering their way round the track. How wonderful.

Thank you SomewhereintheNorth. My point is it's not in the Quran, it's not a requirement so there is no valid reason to cover your face.**

You realise that for many Christians the Bible is also the direct word of God, inerrant in every way? Any human being doing the physical writing was "inspired" by him?

I have been on threads on this very website with people trying desperately to explain away slavery & genocide in biblical texts while trying to hang on to the idea that they are God's words.

The origins of the texts and what they meant 1500 years ago are considerably less relevant than how human beings today choose to interpret them.

On that basis, there's little difference between the Bible & the Islamic texts.

Yahweh/Allah wrote them. And that's that.

The only reason we are not all up in arms in this country at women being forced to be silent in church, or banned from teaching etc. is because Christianity went through the reformation and the enlightenment. Islam needs a similar shaking up.

Me too Dexra

No comparison although crippling your feet with high heels does remind me of Chinese foot binding in the old days.

Yes, SomewhereintheNorth....your view would be one. But there are enough "scholars" in the Islamic world who would disagree with you - and no possible way of knowing who is "right".

That's the problem.

I don't think what I'm saying is too "out there". This stuff was written @600 CE. Men were in charge in ways that even the most conservative theocrats today would find hard to understand. Expecting women to cover up was the least of it!

We are trying to apply present day morals to 1400 year old texts. So, of course this kind of muddled "interpretation" will happen.

This is the danger of all ancient religions rooted in text. The ancient world is not our world. Not even slightly.

Love the so called Feminists.

"you can wear whatever you like"

But no to burka because it's "oppressive"

They fail to mention that any cloth can be oppressive.

Even in the West oppression goes on but we don't call it oppression we sweep it under the carpet.

Women who are/ feel forced to do plastic surgery, bikinis, wear less, fake nails etc.. You might think all are choosing. But how is it directly their choice when most likely the result is from expectations/media/friends etc..

I hate this idea how Western White women love pulling immigrant/Muslim women down. Like they are trying to 'liberate them.' It is just pure arrogance.

And in a liberal society people are free to wear what they want. So if you deny these rights you can't call yourself liberal.