To think that some types of 'western dress' e.g; high heels are as oppressive as the burka?

[malificent7]

Don't get me wrong; I have worn heels in the past in the dubious hope that they look 'sexy.' I have mostly ended up hobbling along at the end of the evening in pain and fed up, envious of those wearing trainers.
I do realise that women have a 'choice ' to wear garments such as heels, mini skirts and boob tubes but aibu to think that they are not garments of liberation but rather an over sexualised aesthetic imposed by the patriarchy.

I am not a massive fan of the burka and I do think that they have been enforced by the patriarchy for a different reason; to protect the modesty of the woman. I am very against the burka ban and I think Boris Johnson is a prick for his comments.

So both types of dress control women in different ways; the western dress to promote sexuality and the burka to hide it.

In short, women should wear what they want without government enforcement and comments from Boris and his ilk.

And before we talk about seeing women's faces when we talk to them and the obstruction to that that the burka causes; what about a full face of slap that many western girls embrace now?

I probably don’t know all the separate terns, I don’t really feel I need to honestly I am not religious.

I think the head/hair covering is fine. Also if someone dresses in long clothes fine but covering the face so you can’t see the person no not fine.

Even in the West oppression goes on but we don't call it oppression we sweep it under the carpet

Hijab forced Iran yes it is wrong and so is forcing someone who wants wear niqab not to wear it. But Western feminists are quiet on this issue

Please tell me you're joking? Surely you couldn't have missed the countless discussions about all these things. some of them on this very thread?

And where on earth has anyone said muslims have to be the "party alcohol type" in order to be accepted?

@malificent7

Hi OP, on the face of it, the points you write seem to make sense. But actually I think you are making more of an argument against the burka:

"I do realise that women have a 'choice ' to wear garments such as heels..."
In the same way that the burqa is supposedly a "choice" for some...but actually not really?

"...they are not garments of liberation but rather an over sexualised aesthetic imposed by the patriarchy."
Surely this is the burqa?

"...enforced by the patriarchy..."
-Yes the burka is

"...to protect the modesty..."
-No, wearing normal clothes such as e.g. a skirt and top, can manage this quite adequately. There is no need to cover your ankles, wrists, neck, etc to be 'modest',

"...women should wear what they want..."
-But in a society surely it's more reasonable to wear what is appropriate for a particular setting according to that society's mores? I.e. not a burka

"a full face of slap that many western girls embrace now"
-But bad makeup choices don't hide the face/facial expressions of a person. Nor do they dehumanise in the same way as the burka.

I think if you asked those same women did they support equal pay/rights/education/access to abortion and contraception your answered would show you that the vast majority of of women are feminists but don’t always use the term.

You sound strange. Don’t you want equality

You haven't experienced this as the workplace and at school. Unfortunately society only accepts certain people

1. extroverts
2. non religious people
3. Those who want to get drunk with them/clubbing etc..

It might be hard to believe but this is true not just in my experience but many people I know friends families colleagues etc..

ThisLady

Spot on

So now people who don't call themselves feminists are because you say so?

Sounds like forcing your view on others.

Cuppa or wine, me I want all those things but I don't call myself a feminist.

Jorginho5 that list of things is just funny. I can assure you that in a professional workplace those things are not what make you successful. You're just stereotyping.

Maybe if you asked women why they aren't you will find the answers I will list some reasons why:

1. Too centred on equality - Yes it's important to have equality but feminists love causing debate when there is nothing to debate. For example male footballer getting paid more women. They fail to take into account how much money male football has, big names, popularity etc...

2. Too much focus on white women - Feminism rarely acknowledges the struggles of a non white women

3. Double standards - Girls hate being called fat which is awful I agree. But the same girls would have no problem laughing short guys something they have no control of

"Veil is a cloth or garment, put on the head of a woman to cover her face and body, as an additional garment to her usual clothes at home"

Sheikh Al Albani -may Allah have mercy on him- said, “Every veil is hijab, but not hijab is veil, as commonly seen.”

This site makes it clear that a veil covers the face. Hijab has multiple meanings, and doesn't just refer to a head covering. A veil (according to this) has one meaning - a cloth to cover the face and head.

whatisquran.com/359-veil-in-islam.html

Well they affect you socially. You try and be nice to your colleagues I.e. go coffee with them or go for lunch. But they reject you cause they see you as strange just because you don't do things like alcohol partying and are not extroverts just because it didn't happen to you doesn't mean these things don't occur

Some women do choose to wear the niqab

These women are few in number in the west but what the influence is from is Wahhabism - never can this form is Islam be considered progressive for women

For some i beleive it’s become political

For the vast majority of women it’s forced in them by religious laws of the country they live in and some sadly then feel safer wearing it when these laws are no longer in place

Bicicle

Exactly

Jorgino5

I think your list just displays your own prejudices to western society.

I have worked with all sorts in my day and introverts, religious people and the sober were just as popular and sucessful.

Is a burka is not oppressive and used to protect modesty then why is it only women who are to wear them?

Wearing high heels is not forced on women by men, it is done freely, if you are stupid enough to put your health and safety at risk it is your own choice.
I never have worn them and never will, that is my choice.
Wearing a cover over your head to hide your face from people should be banned, it is alian to our culture and most disrespectful to our customs and norms.
Boris said what most of us feel, forcing women into this garb is a through back to the dark ages and we should not try and suppress criticism of its use.

Jorgiho5
2) Too much focus on white women - Feminism rarely acknowledges the struggles of a non white women

This point, when women do we are silenced. We can't win can we?

Yabu.
No comparison. I rarely wear heals and when I do it is because the outfit I have chosen works better with a heel.

Completely different to the burqa. The female Muslims I know are mostly doctors. They have never worn a burqa and wear skirts and sometimes heels. These are women that were born in the 70’s in Iran. Back then it was only the rural women (so called peasants) who wore the burqa. The so called elite and educated never wore it and still don’t.

Oppression does happen in Western Society

1. To be deemed a female model majority time you need to be tall and skinny.

2. Short guys aren't deemed as model worthy. Society has made tall guys desirable.

3. Lighter skin colour is seen as desirable.

Unfortunately some of these societal trends we don't want to break. We accept it. That's what makes oppression deeper.

I actually don't think it's fine at all that women are "required" to wear hijab.

If they want to...OK. Same with the burka...if they want to...OK.

It's the requirement I have a problem with. The hijab is as much a symbol of misogyny as the burka...just because it looks** prettier doesn't make it less so.

Let's remember why women cover their hair...so that they don't attract the attentions of men other than their husbands. It's still all about "modesty".

Bizarre conversation this is turning into.

Let's support the right of women to wear what they want by banning some women from wearing what they want.

You haven't experienced this as the workplace and at school. Unfortunately society only accepts certain people

Actually I have more experience of this than you probably think. Because of the sector I recruited in most of my employees were asian and very largely muslim, and in all those years I never heard anyone criticised for avoiding parties and alcohol. Asked gently in an I-want-to-understand kind of way perhaps, but criticised - no

I have, however, heard criticism over demands that a female trainer should be removed because her presence was "offensive", insistence that the company should meet the costs of a female employee's "escort" and much, more more in the same vein

OK so your saying my experiences are false and this never happens right got you

I do thoroughly agree with the OP.

We in the west see the wearing of the burkha as a form of oppression. We think that women who say they want to wear it as being so conditioned and so down-trodden that we worry that their choices are not free or freely made.

But we don't think that we are oppressed - and perhaps we are not to the same degree. But there is a degree of oppression in this body beautiful thing. There is a high degree of oppression in women wearing high heels that are harmful to them. There's an element of conditioning that we are refusing to acknowledge.

It'd kind of be great if all societies would lay off on what women wear or should look like.

Banana

I get you and I hear the argument that to ban or not to ban either way you are controlling women’s choices. Honestly I get the problem.

However the full face covering is so extreme and so unpalatable to western values I think it really should be banned in a public place.

jorghino5

How do Muslim men dress modestly?

so your saying my experiences are false and this never happens

Not at all; I'm the first to accept - to use your example of workmates shunning you - that people are various and some can occasionally behave oddly

But while I mean this gently you might want to consider that, if this happens to you often, the common denominator may not be other people