Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that some types of 'western dress' e.g; high heels are as oppressive as the burka?

529 replies

malificent7 · 08/08/2018 12:51

Don't get me wrong; I have worn heels in the past in the dubious hope that they look 'sexy.' I have mostly ended up hobbling along at the end of the evening in pain and fed up, envious of those wearing trainers.
I do realise that women have a 'choice ' to wear garments such as heels, mini skirts and boob tubes but aibu to think that they are not garments of liberation but rather an over sexualised aesthetic imposed by the patriarchy.

I am not a massive fan of the burka and I do think that they have been enforced by the patriarchy for a different reason; to protect the modesty of the woman. I am very against the burka ban and I think Boris Johnson is a prick for his comments.

So both types of dress control women in different ways; the western dress to promote sexuality and the burka to hide it.

In short, women should wear what they want without government enforcement and comments from Boris and his ilk.

And before we talk about seeing women's faces when we talk to them and the obstruction to that that the burka causes; what about a full face of slap that many western girls embrace now?

OP posts:
NotACleverName · 08/08/2018 13:07

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quoted a post that's been removed for breaking our guidelines

TheHulksPurplePanties · 08/08/2018 13:07

the reasons behind women wearing it are abhorrent

The women I know who wear it do so because they believe it's a sign of their faith. I don't find that particularly abhorrent.

Tinycitrus · 08/08/2018 13:07

You are defending the Burqa? The garment enforced by militant oppressive Muslim governments across the world?

And equating it wuth high heels?

Have you gone insane?

Tinycitrus · 08/08/2018 13:08

Aye a sign of faith. While their t shirted husband stills alongside them in a t shirt.

MyDirtyLittleSecret · 08/08/2018 13:10

Not all women have that choice, Shirleyphallus but, leaving aside the minority with controlling partners, I do agree the two premises are so far apart in equivalency re freedom of choice (again, leaving aside women who actively choose to wear the burka for religious/cultural reasons) that the OP is being goady deliberately obtuse with this argument. No it's not the same OP, not even close.

Original poster
malificent7 · 08/08/2018 13:10

Heels are oppressive as they cause disfigurement of the foot and leg.

OP posts:
TheHulksPurplePanties · 08/08/2018 13:11

While their t shirted husband stills alongside them in a t shirt.

Yes there are a few of those. More often I see the men dressed as conservatively, with head covers.

Also, of the women I know, many of their husbands don't want them to wear niqab because it makes them a target for hatred and racism, but the women choose too anyway.

Original poster
malificent7 · 08/08/2018 13:12

and back too.

OP posts:
mrbob · 08/08/2018 13:12

The burka looks sinister and ridiculous and the reasons behind women wearing it are abhorrent

I am more disturbed by some of the outfits I see people wearing I the street on an average day. I think some people look ridiculous (entirely their choice) I don’t think the burqa looks either sinister nor ridiculous and I fully support women’s choice to wear them. I don’t in any way condone people being forced to wear anything but I think your views are significantly more abhorrent

Original poster
malificent7 · 08/08/2018 13:13

Well plenty of western men go out in jeans and t shirts whilst their dp hobbles along in heels.

OP posts:
Tinycitrus · 08/08/2018 13:13

I’ve never seen a man in a burqa. And I live in a very multi cultural area.

Twistella · 08/08/2018 13:13

Heels are oppressive as they cause disfigurement of the foot and leg

But I don't expect women who wear high heels wear them for everything. Shock horror they might wear trainers at the gym.

Don't see many women who wear the burka or niquab at the gym, oh hold on, that's because they aren't allowed to reveal their face or body in public.

Its nuts.

unlimiteddilutingjuice · 08/08/2018 13:14

YABU to use the burka (one piece head covering with a grill to look out of) as your example as its a pretty extreme and uncommon example of Islamic dress.
Very few items of clothing are as oppressive as a burka.

YANBU that western clothing conventions can be as oppressive as muslim clothing conventions.

I hate that so much of the clothing commonly sold for women to wear swimming, dancing or going out in the sun also displays our bodies suggestively for the male gaze. Yes you can buy clothes that don't. But I hate that that's the default.

It only seems normal because we're used to it. If you break it down its bloody weird and a bit creepy.

Twistella · 08/08/2018 13:14

I don’t think the burqa looks either sinister nor ridiculous and I fully support women’s choice to wear them. I don’t in any way condone people being forced to wear anything but I think your views are significantly more abhorrent

Good for you.

mrbob · 08/08/2018 13:15

that's because they aren't allowed to reveal their face or body in public
No that’s becuause they CHOOSE not to reveal their body in public.

Twistella · 08/08/2018 13:16

A swimming costume isn't designed for the male gaze. I'm sure the women at the European champs would be amused to hear that you think that.

Tinycitrus · 08/08/2018 13:16

You have a choice regarding heels. I wire trainers and doc martens as a young woman and no one ostracised me, questioned my morality or worse.

But I guess the subtext of your op is that it’s ok fir those women to wear the burqa because it’s culture innit.

I think it’s medieval.

Twistella · 08/08/2018 13:16

They aren't allowed to mrbob

I don't think you really understand this

TheHulksPurplePanties · 08/08/2018 13:17

I’ve never seen a man in a burqa.

Well you wouldn't know would you. But I didn't mean burka. I meant khandora, ghuttra, thobe, etc.

TheGoldenWolfFleece · 08/08/2018 13:18

I agree with you OP. Ok high heels and overly sexualized clothing is not comparable to the burqa but it is on the same sliding scale. It's still a patriarchal expectation of what women should wear to please men, predominantly. On both sides of the debate you will have women who enjoy wearing the item of clothing in question but you'll have many more who feel that they should wear it because that's what women do in their culture.

Why would a woman need to emphasise the length of her legs by wearing heels if not to please the male gaze? Women are socialised to think that long legs are desirable and therefore will hobble themselves by wearing high heels in order to make men find them more attractive.

Cue a thousand women now saying they wear heels for themselves. But why? Dig down deep enough and you come back to trying to meet society's expectation of women.

CadleCrap · 08/08/2018 13:18

I am a tall woman. We have a lot of standing desk and at work.

Occasionally I choose to wear high heels. Not that high, just a couple of inches which takes me to over 6 foot.

Strangely, these occasions happen to coincide with times I am with my short arsed 5’ 6” mysoginist and incompetent boss.

Did I mention the standing desks?

He fucking hates it that he has to physically look up to me.

Best
Revenge
Ever

And all because I can choose what to wear.

hellsbellsmelons · 08/08/2018 13:19

Heels are oppressive as they cause disfigurement of the foot and leg
How?
I just find heels I'm comfortable in.
I'm short and l like the bit of height I get.
I like the fact my legs look far better when I'm wearing heels.
My legs and feet are NOT disfigured.
I would say in the winter I wear some kind of heel most of the time.
Not so much in the summer because flip flops rule!
I actually find that things like ballet pumps, give me shin splints.

scaryteacher · 08/08/2018 13:20

Meetoo and yet their have been examples when the women refuse or people don’t want to be branded racists so don’t ask if they refuse to uncover they should be done for contempt of court if in court, and not allowed to travel if they refuse at passport control. It's no different from asking some one to take a balaclava off if they were wearing one in either situation.

It's not racist to ask them to uncover in certain situations - it's to do with security for all of us. If I have to be have my face scrutinised at passport control, then the same should apply for everyone else.

unlimiteddilutingjuice · 08/08/2018 13:23

"A swimming costume isn't designed for the male gaze. I'm sure the women at the European champs would be amused to hear that you think that."

My swimming costume isn't. Its a speedo one piece with square cut legs. I had to order it off the internet.
If I had gone into a shop I could have chosen a bikini or a one piece with a low cut front and high cut legs that would have shown off half my arse.

The sexualised version is the default. You have to actively seek out an alternative.

TheHulksPurplePanties · 08/08/2018 13:24

YABU to use the burka (one piece head covering with a grill to look out of) as your example as its a pretty extreme and uncommon example of Islamic dress.

YY. The burka is incredibly rare. I've lived in the ME for almost 13 years and I've never actually seen anyone wear one. From what I know it's almost entirely isolated to Afghanistan and only enforced during the Taliban era.

Iran and Saudi enforce women wear abaya and a head covering. In Saudi it does waffle between just wearing hijab (hair cover) or having to wear niqab (face cover, but only local women).

No other country in the world that I'm aware of force these dress codes on women, though the rest of the GCC countries require their national government employees to wear national dress. But only while at work. Government employees are also not allowed to wear niqab.