to feel car driving is frequently unjustified

[Clairetree1]

Having sat in a traffic jam yesterday, in which I counted 10 buses being held up by around 45 cars, many of which only had one person in.

So say 60 people in cars holding up 600 people in buses....

just as a snapshot, throughout the whole journey, each person in a car seems to hold up 10 people in a bus, and if the cars were not there, those car travelers could easily fit on the buses, and everyone would be moving at least 3x as fast,

and I can't really see how this is allowed, or can be justified.

If you are in a city, or in another area with an adequate bus route, and are physically able to use the bus, how do you justify to yourself the danger, inconvenience and lethal pollution you subject everyone else to? Not to mention the further damage to the environment caused by concreting over parking spaces, car manufacture, etc.

I know some people are going to say they need the time, but if cars were banned from our cities and more people on public transport, everyone would be moving faster.

I know some people are going to say they are disabled, or have too much to carry, but some people who are disabled or have a lot to carry do use buses, they often have no choice! it doesn't automatically preclude you.

I know some people are just going to say they have a right to, but really, do you? Pollution is killing thousands of people a year in the UK, not to mention those killed in car crashes, the environmental damage done including global warming, and the sheer inconvenience to everybody else.

I know a couple of cities are planning on banning private cars, and I know petrol cars are on their way out, so things might well improve, but I just don't understand how we reached this position in the first place, so much death and destruction and time taken away by an entitled privileged few with such a selfish habit I can't understand how they justify to themselves.

I don't expect many people to agree with me, I think this privilege is so deeply ingrained in our culture that people genuinely feel they have a right to drive cars, when perfectly adequate public transport exist.

I don't think there is any moral right at all though, I think it is morally wrong in every way

@Clairetree1

Careful there Claire, it's a long way down from that high horse you're on.

Public transport to work would take me well over an hour as I'd need to walk a bit, catch a bus, walk to another stop, catch another bus, and walk a little again. It's around 10-15 minutes in the car door to door. In fact the bus would probably be even longer as our bus service, although says every 10 minutes or so, is usually much less frequent.

I have free parking at work. I also can generally park for free in town, as dh has a parking permit too which he can use any time or day, not just working hours.

If shopping, I would find it difficult to carry lots of bags back on public transport.

For longer journeys, the train is often much dearer than it costs to take the car and park. It generally takes far longer on the train too.

However, I am planning on changing my car to an electric one next year.

I don't understand how a zero emissions electric car is just as bad as a petrol or diesel car? Can someone explain??

Careful there Claire, it's a long way down from that high horse you're on

Environmentally friendly though

@noego petrol isn't the only cost of your car though, is it? What did it cost to buy, tax and depreciation and repairs- plus insurance? We worked out it would cost us at least a tenner a day to have a cheapish car sat outside.

I work shifts and live in the sticks. One train and one bus an hour. Nothing out of the 8-6 slot. It would cost me more than £10 per day to commute. I HAVE to drive.

@cookiesandchocolate

plumpie79, there is a difference between sunk costs and variable costs. The price of the car purchase, yearly insurance and price of repairs are all sunk costs - you pay them once no matter how you use this asset later. Petrol is a variable cost. So are prices of bus/rail tickets. Once you incurred the sunk costs, the incentive is to make the most of it as opposed to incur more variable costs on top of it. So if petrol is cheaper than tickets, for most people it will be petrol.

AutumnMadness she isn't a sahp. She works 15 hour days as a teacher in addition to fostering numerous disabled children.

petrol isn't the only cost of your car though, is it? What did it cost to buy, tax and depreciation and repairs- plus insurance? We worked out it would cost us at least a tenner a day to have a cheapish car sat outside.

It would cost me at least £250 a month for a car! What a ball and chain!

And sometimes you just cannot avoid the sunk costs of having a car even if you do not theoretically need to use it every day - e.g. you might have a weekly journey that cannot be made on public transport (e.g. to visit a relative in a remote care home).

I do agree with you but it’s a chicken and egg situation. Hardly anyone I know in London drives because there’s the infrastructure there and they don’t need to.

I don’t drive, DH does. It’s pretty much impossible for me to take our twins anywhere - double buggy takes up the whole wheelchair space, I’d have to get off if anyone in a wheelchair got on, often there’s already a kid in a buggy on there so I have to let it pass and wait for another - it’s not feasible when you have to be somewhere like a hospital appointment.

So my car cost me nothing.

With insurance and tax and petrol I pay around £50 a month.

I'm also amazed that she does 14 to 16 hour days and manages to get a bus to work and back.

I don't really see why that is amazing, or even particularly noteworthy

off to work now, may well rejoin this when I get back

Hang on. I thought you were a teacher....and as you live in London then you will still be on holiday?

I don't understand how a zero emissions electric car is just as bad as a petrol or diesel car? Can someone explain??

because to generate the electricity you burn fossil fuel.

In fact to move a car through generating electricity by burning fossil fuel, you need to burn MORE fossil fuel than if the car is moved directly by burning petrol

I agree with you OP but public transport will have to become much more widespread, and significantly cheaper, before anything will change.

Completely agree op. Cars are polluting, dangerous and elitist.
Journeys of 3 miles or less can be done by bike if there's no public transport.
People are too selfish, lazy and snobbish to care about other people or the environment

Can I also ask. Where you in the car during this traffic jam and how many of you were in the car?

I was on a bus, and there were 60 people on my bus

I think families being two car families is the issue too.

If families had one car and used it for outings and collecting parcels etc, so many cars would be off the road.

@AutumnMadness well yes but given it's all money, you can assess whether to sink the costs in the first place. I think a lot of people sink those costs because they can't imagine not having a car (and then of course the incentive is to drive it lots).

Really - if cost is your only motivator/necessity - you need to look at the sunk + recurring costs. For some people that will be cheaper but I think others might be surprised given how often people only talk about the recurring.

Public transport can be a sunk cost by the way. Season tickets largely.

It is those who drive under a mile for a journey that can be walked (unless you have a disability) that are the worst in my view. Especially those who take children to school and then go straight back home again.

No reason to have a Chelsea Tractor for other journeys either.

To drive to work takes me 15-20 minutes in clear traffic, 20-30 minutes in the usual afternoon rush. (I start late so miss the morning rush hour). To get the bus takes an hour. The last time I carpooled the driver and another passenger were smoking in the car.

So, you tell me, am I justified driving?

I've never worked in a school that is closed during the summer - when do you reorganise your classrooms and stuff like that?

How can it possibly take you six weeks to reorganise your classroom and similar? DSis goes in for two or three days the week before the beginning of term to do that.

To drive to work takes me 15-20 minutes in clear traffic, 20-30 minutes in the usual afternoon rush. (I start late so miss the morning rush hour). To get the bus takes an hour. The last time I carpooled the driver and another passenger were smoking in the car

So, you tell me, am I justified driving?

well, this is the issue, isn't it, who would draw the line, and where?

You clearly think you are justified in driving.

To me, another car on the road polluting the atmosphere, contributing to all the issues we have been speaking about, premature deaths, global warming, etc

No, if you specifically want my opinion, you are morally wrong, it is very wrong for you to contribute to pollution to put a single occupant car on the road for the sake of saving yourself an hour a day, which you could to some extent put to good use on the bus if you chose to anyway.

I would like you to be banned from making that journey. I don't expect you to agree with me though