to feel car driving is frequently unjustified

[Clairetree1]

Having sat in a traffic jam yesterday, in which I counted 10 buses being held up by around 45 cars, many of which only had one person in.

So say 60 people in cars holding up 600 people in buses....

just as a snapshot, throughout the whole journey, each person in a car seems to hold up 10 people in a bus, and if the cars were not there, those car travelers could easily fit on the buses, and everyone would be moving at least 3x as fast,

and I can't really see how this is allowed, or can be justified.

If you are in a city, or in another area with an adequate bus route, and are physically able to use the bus, how do you justify to yourself the danger, inconvenience and lethal pollution you subject everyone else to? Not to mention the further damage to the environment caused by concreting over parking spaces, car manufacture, etc.

I know some people are going to say they need the time, but if cars were banned from our cities and more people on public transport, everyone would be moving faster.

I know some people are going to say they are disabled, or have too much to carry, but some people who are disabled or have a lot to carry do use buses, they often have no choice! it doesn't automatically preclude you.

I know some people are just going to say they have a right to, but really, do you? Pollution is killing thousands of people a year in the UK, not to mention those killed in car crashes, the environmental damage done including global warming, and the sheer inconvenience to everybody else.

I know a couple of cities are planning on banning private cars, and I know petrol cars are on their way out, so things might well improve, but I just don't understand how we reached this position in the first place, so much death and destruction and time taken away by an entitled privileged few with such a selfish habit I can't understand how they justify to themselves.

I don't expect many people to agree with me, I think this privilege is so deeply ingrained in our culture that people genuinely feel they have a right to drive cars, when perfectly adequate public transport exist.

I don't think there is any moral right at all though, I think it is morally wrong in every way

All the people saying there isn't adequate public transport - the point that OP is making (I think!) is that if everyone in towns and cities took public transport, there would be more of it, more routes, more options. We do need to incentivise people to take public transport and in some places that might include things like a congestion charge.

Of course there are journeys that are difficult to do without a car, but we probably all also know people who will drive a mile to the shop to buy milk just because they can.

All the people saying there isn't adequate public transport - the point that OP is making (I think!) is that if everyone in towns and cities took public transport, there would be more of it, more routes, more options

I live in Manchester. The bus I want to take stops at 6.45. An alternative route takes me within 3 miles of my destination. I am not taking the alternative route and walking for 3 miles twice a day, in the hope it will make bus companies and the councils think “let’s do more”.

If PT was convenient and good value, then people would use it, but unfortunately it often isn't. We need to drive to Durham tomorrow so we had a look at coach and train tickets- buses that go there from our city don't seem to exist and train tickets are more expensive than hiring a car anx they'd leave us very little time to actually go sightseeing.

Going to the beach means we have to take the last bus at about 16:30 rather than staying longer and there's no weekend service.

For clarity, I can't drive and we can't afford a car until I start working again and I get free bus travel as my partner works for stagecoach so I do go everywhere without a car.

I also chose to live v close to the main hub and on a main route with about 8 buses so obviously very convenient. Close to all amenities as well, but carrying shopping back home is still a pain, sometimes literally due to sciatica.

And I agree with metoodear, you are limited in what you can do- can't take DS to a petting farm, strawberry picking or even to the out of town martial arts class.

So make it cheap and make sure it actually caters to their passengers' needs and people will use it, even if they do have a car as there would be other benefits, leaving only a minority, like people with disabilities, to use a car for all journeys.

ShatnersWig

Aren't schools closed at the moment?

shhh, don't tell anyone, I'm also amazed that she does 14 to 16 hour days and manages to get a bus to work and back.

My DH works in a business park, there is no public transport that would get him there and particularly for the shifts he works what is he meant to do, walk 16 miles?

I used to work at a purpose built complex just outside our nearest city to get there by transport would be a ten minute walk to the bus stop, 50 minute bus, 5minute walk to the subway, 10 minute subway ride and then a 30 minute walk at the other end through a dodgy area they are trying to regenerate. I could drive there in 30 minutes! I also live in a village with 1 bus an hour to nearest town then another bus to the city with a gap of 20 minutes. I’m just glad I now work in the city and we have a train station since the buses are shite!

So you see there is not always ‘adequate public transport’.

I actually think it should be mandatory for women with children to drive

1. What about women (and men for that matter) who just have no aptitude for driving, and would make the roads less safe for other people because of their lack of spatial awareness, slow reactions or tendency to freeze when scared?

I wonder if our journeys are more "diffuse" for want of a better word than they used to be. Most of us don't live near our workplace and a lot of services are more centralised. How could you create public transport that suits everyone?

I'm a vegetarian. I have no children. Rarely fly. I design carbon neutral buildings.

I drive a car. So shoot me.

However, much I want to tell the OP to fuck off, I won't because it really sounds like she can't afford a car and so I think I'll pity her instead.

Perfectly adequate transport doesn't exist at all! It is expensive and is generally poor in both provision and quality of service. There need to be huge investments in mass transit provision in many cities before banning cars is anything other than economic suicide.

I hate those out of town business parks, there's one I drive past that's literally in the middle of no where and a couple of my partners friends work there, its a 30 minute walk to a pub or corner shop so an inadequate burger van comes at lunch everyday for those poor buggers who haven't Brought a lunch in. There's literally no public transport, probably a bus stop in a village 30 mins walk away and to get to that bus stop probably takes an hour from the city centre bus terminal. A joke.

Gwenhwyfar, no, I don't believe that the solutions to traffic jams is everyone taking an individual decision to use public transport more, thus pushing up the demand. Some things need to be a collective enterprise and transport infrastructure is one of them. The railways were not invented because people suddenly decided to travel loads from Liverpool to Manchester. First a rich man and his company built a train and a trainline and then people started traveling more.

Same with transport today. Who do you want to make those individual adaptation? For every "lazy" car lover, there is a working mother rushed off her feet, a care worker with a dozen visits to make in a day and a firefighter coming home from a night shift.

Market forces and capitalism are not a solution for our environmental and social problems. Tax-financed collective endeavor is.

But according to mn my dc aren't allowed/entitled to sit on public transport so I have to drive a car to ensure they can sit... also live in the West Country so public transport is limited!

I have anxiety so feel physically sick stuck on a bus full of people packed like sardines and the buses I've been on normally have passengers with bad hygiene and those who are rude or aggressive. When I start teaching in September I will also have a boot full of stuff to carry. I wouldn't get the bus if I was paid to, never mind me paying the extortionate prices that you have to round here.

I read that when there is the next UK census, people will be asked how far they commute to work. I guess the Government needs to plan for the future, possible drive and pay schemes, electric transport, public transport etc

I used to work in a city and would have been that single person in a car. But I travelled from a back of beyond village to get there so needed my car. I agree if you live on a route to work in a city you would not need to drive. But considering the lack of parking in cities I would think people who had that option would do it anyway. Most of my unemployed lay about relatives in London don't drive because the pub and chippy are within walking distance on or the bus route.

hate those out of town business parks, there's one I drive past that's literally in the middle of no where and a couple of my partners friends work there, its a 30 minute walk to a pub or corner shop so an inadequate burger van comes at lunch everyday for those poor buggers who haven't Brought a lunch in. There's literally no public transport, probably a bus stop in a village 30 mins walk away and to get to that bus stop probably takes an hour from the city centre bus terminal. A joke.

I hate them too. What a pathetically faceless way to kill the high street.

All this is the fault of neoliberalism and corporations but that’s a different thread...

I would love to take the bus to work. Years ago, before having children, I did, and I spent the hour reading. That amount of time is a luxury I can no longer afford, now that commuting by car to the same place takes less than ten minutes. When both my children are at school, I'll need every minute to work as many hours as possible whilst they're at school. So whilst I agree with you, OP, I am unable to do so.

We live in a city and dh is that single car occupier sat in traffic. He doesn't work in the city, though. His office is 25 miles past the other side of the city and isn't served by any bus.

I didn't own/use a car until I was 32. Then I moved to a more rural area. It was fine, in theory, I would be walking a mile to the bus stop with two children, no more than I'd done in the town. But then my baby was ill and required weekly visits to hospital, I became ill and had restricted mobility, I still had to get the eldest to school, attend the hospital on time etc etc
Obviously I got a car at that point.
It takes around 4-6 hours to attend and return from a hospital appointment on the bus here. Nightmare.

@foxtiger it wasn't me who said that it was @meetoodear on the first page. I was pointing out it was totally ridiculous.

Public transport is absolutely useless where I live!

DH used to work in a town about 12 miles away from us, the same town we are going to have to buy most of the school uniforms from for our children as there are very few shops in our town. He'd drive to the outskirts of town and use the Park & Ride, so not adding to congestion in the town centre.

When the car was in the garage he had to use the bus to get to work. It added nearly 2 hours onto his day (for a 12 mile journey!) and cost nearly £8.00 for a return journey. It's a good job he didn't have to work Sundays as there are no buses out of our town on Sundays.

As there are 6 of us, to use the bus to get the school uniforms would take 4 adult and 2 childrens fares - approx. £40 just on the bus, also it's inconvenient and takes more time etc. Different shape children generally means different shops for trousers, try Tesco, M&S, Sainsburys etc. in town, if need Asda sizing (for DS3, usually the case; but they don't tend to fit DS2!) it's another trip to Asda on the outskirts of town. Another bus, more time, more money. Then need to get everything back home, including the food shop we'd inevitably do while there to save us another (expensive) journey. Using the car will mean saving money and time.

If we had a car just for family journeys and used buses for work\other journeys then we'd be spending money on taxing\MOTing\repairing a car etc. to not use it very much; spending more money on buses when we have a car sat rusting outside. No thank you, we are definitely not made of money.

Just seeing a small part of someone's journey by car doesn't give you the whole picture of where they have been and how easy or hard it would have been for them to use public transport. Yes, I have no doubt there will be people driving places unnecessarily, but it is difficult to work out which journeys they would be. Seeing my family drive along the main street of our town doesn't mean we have only done a 5 minute journey and could have walked, or a 20 minute journey we could have used the bus for, it could have been the end of a 2 hour journey that would have taken all day and been prohibitively expensive on public transport, therefore it is hard to determine how much car use is frequently unjustified.

auditqueen, I don't think it's about the OP not being able to afford a car. She mentioned (correct me if I am wrong) that she fostered. To be a foster carer, you generally need to be a stay at home parent. This means that she simply does not fact the pressures that those of us who work do.

@Debfronut I can assure you that most workplaces in London are also on a bus or tube not just chip shops. I'm waiting for a train right now that will get me home door to door in 35 minutes. It would take about 90 minutes and cost god knows how much to drive and I would be contributing to the lethal levels of pollution in central London. Very smart of people to live within walking distance of a chippy.

Not read the whole thread but to give you some idea.

Bus trip to town centre £7.00 return. Walking with shopping to bus stop from supermarket 50 yards plus from bus stop to house 300 yards.

Going in Car. Petrol costs £1.00. Parking free. Walk to car from supermarket 175 yards and from car to house door 2 yards.

Can I also ask. Where you in the car during this traffic jam and how many of you were in the car?

I used to use public transport as a child/teen/young 20-something, when it was cheap and regular, and I lived in a town on a bus route!

I learned to drive in my mid 20's and have not used public transport since. I've lived very rural for nearly a decade now - 3 miles from the nearest bus stop, and 12 miles from a train station. Even if we drive to the train station and leave the car there, it takes us half the time to get to the 5 or 6 big towns and cities closest to us by car, than it does by train. In addition, it takes about a third of the time to get anywhere in the UK by car, than by bus. And going places by train or bus often costs 3-4 times more money than the cost of the petrol.

I have several relatives and friends with 2-4 children each, who have kids at different schools - all with poor - or NO public transport. They also have jobs, and have to go to work after taking them. Having no car would make it impossible for them to get all the kids to their schools on time, and to get to work.

I also have several relatives, and husbands of friends, who work on big industrial estates on shift work. 5 -15 miles away, no public transport, 6am or midnight finish, and dark when they start and finish some of the year. They would find it very hard to hold down their job(s) with no car.

Sharing a car is not always an option, as people don't always live closeby, and they are not always working the same hours/shifts/days, and if it's a leisure pursuit, (or a social event,) you may not always want to leave at the same time.

It's all very well the OP @Clairetree1 getting on her high horse, and finger-wagging at the people who DARE to have a car, but thanks to the breakdown of communities, and many massive employers closing over the last few decades, (and many other factors,) people no longer live 5 minutes walk from where they work. In addition, many more women have jobs now, and many children don't go to school close to where they live, often because there is no space for them.

We do (like many others here,) try and keep driving to a minimum - not only because of petrol costing a lot, but also, because it helps the environment. But as some posters have said, for many people, it's impossible to have no car.

You need to quit being so judgemental and smug OP.