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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Boris Johnson should be be thrown out of Tory party?

999 replies

crunchymint · 07/08/2018 22:26

He is clearly racist. He should be thrown out of the Conservative party.

OP posts:
hackmum · 08/08/2018 08:51

Boris is ghastly and was a dreadful Foreign Secretary. Obviously it's up to the Tory Party whether they throw him out.

But can we not pretend that wearing a niqab or burka is equivalent to wearing a turban or a yarmulke or any other item of religious dress? It's not. As has already been pointed out on this thread, the vast majority of Muslim women in this country don't wear a niqab or a burka. A religious ideology that requires women to completely cover their faces is extreme and troubling.

A good explanation of the different kinds of face and head coverings from the BBC:

www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/24118241

PestymcPestFace · 08/08/2018 08:52

It is easy to argue against full face covering without bullying women.

To think Boris Johnson should be be thrown out of Tory party?
Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow · 08/08/2018 08:52

I agree.

It is utterly acceptable to be antisemitic in the Labour Party and NOTHING is done. It’s rife.

Yet pointing out that full face covering is utterly silly and looks so leads to this backlash?

Cuppaorwine · 08/08/2018 08:52

RedPanda

In the light if the jo cox murder your comments are frankly vile.

Another example of the hate piling upon hate in this country.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 08/08/2018 08:53

I am sure if people explained they are wearing a balaclava because of scaring it would be accepted by many but how often does this happen

I am not in support of the niqab/burka but that argument or we can’t wear our crash helmets/balaklavd it isn’t fair just appears childish no one argued to be able to wear them in public before the niqab because a political argument

Echo2 · 08/08/2018 08:54

It’s a debate that needs to be had for sure. I’ve just been watching breakfast news where a feminist said most people feel the burka is ‘ridiculous’ ( her words ) & that it’s a symbol of oppression.
Hasn’t it been banned in France?
But Boris worded his views badly imo.

Nutkins24 · 08/08/2018 08:57

@NashvilleQueen excellently put. He’s irresponsible and completely self serving.

Helmetbymidnight · 08/08/2018 08:57

It is easy to argue against full face covering without bullying women

You would have thought so, right?

Nevertheless lots of people really like that he talks like this...

It’s on radio 4 now.

ImAIdoot · 08/08/2018 09:00

it’s ‘ok to express my opinion’

Putting it in quotes doesn't make a difference, it is ok for people to express their opinion, preventing them from doing so is evil, and the more anyone tries to do this, the more they divorce themselves from the reality that in a free society, a free culture, people will have this right anyway.

Boris expressed the opinion that he doesn't like it but banning it raises serious questions if you want a free society, which is spot on as far as I'm concerned, but it would be fine for him to express another opinion if he wanted. People can choose to back or not back a politician at the ballot box if they disagree with their positions on things.

Nutkins24 · 08/08/2018 09:01

It’s not a debate that needs to be had. I can’t believe we are even having this conversation still. Lots of women chose to wear them. We might as well say we should ban mini shorts and skirts becasue they could also be a ‘symbol of Male oppression’. I don’t want to live in a society that thinks it’s ok to ban items of women’s clothing.

LassWiADelicateAir · 08/08/2018 09:01

I am sure if people explained they are wearing a balaclava because of scaring it would be accepted by many but how often does this happen

Again irrelevant. And why should wearers of other face coverings have to explain and justify their choice.

It is not childish to point out the absurdity of one type of full face covering , worn only for the purpose of hiding women, being treated as acceptable but no other one is.

scaryteacher · 08/08/2018 09:02

Here are the two paragraphs of the article that have people so riled up.

'If you tell me that the burka is oppressive, then I am with you. If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their faces, then I totally agree – and I would add that I can find no scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran. I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people should choose to go around looking like letter boxes; and I thoroughly dislike any attempt by any – invariably male – government to encourage such demonstrations of “modesty”, notably the extraordinary exhortations of President Ramzan Kadyrov of Chechnya, who has told the men of his country to splat their women with paintballs if they fail to cover their heads.

If a constituent came to my MP’s surgery with her face obscured, I should feel fully entitled – like Jack Straw – to ask her to remove it so that I could talk to her properly. If a female student turned up at school or at a university lecture looking like a bank robber then ditto: those in authority should be allowed to converse openly with those that they are being asked to instruct. As for individual businesses or branches of government – they should of course be able to enforce a dress code that enables their employees to interact with customers; and that means human beings must be able to see each other’s faces and read their expressions. It’s how we work.'

He doesn't say that those wearing the burka or the niqab look like bank robbers - you can of choose to read it like that, but he is making the point that a female student covers their face, then that shouldn't be allowed, (and I've had 15/16 year olds and sixth formers in the classroom covering their face with scarves because they had a ginormous zit; or they'd applied their foundation badly and had a tide mark, or there was a new lip or chin piercing they were trying to hide).

He goes on to say:

All that seems to me to be sensible. But such restrictions are not quite the same as telling a free-born adult woman what she may or may not wear, in a public place, when she is simply minding her own business. I am against a total ban because it is inevitably construed – rightly or wrongly – as being intended to make some point about Islam. If you go for a total ban, you play into the hands of those who want to politicise and dramatise the so-called clash of civilisations; and you fan the flames of grievance. You risk turning people into martyrs, and you risk a general crackdown on any public symbols of religious affiliation, and you may simply make the problem worse. '

Having read the article in full it seems to me that he is against banning the burka in the UK. I don't think women should be covering their faces either unless necessary for work, ditto for men.

It is getting to the point that no criticism can be made of Islam or the culture of some of its adherents, without calls of racism. If we are allowed to critique other religions, then Islam cannot and must not be exempt from that.

bellinisurge · 08/08/2018 09:03

He is a very clever man who knows how to dog whistle.
The Scumbag should be out of mainstream British politics.

Nutkins24 · 08/08/2018 09:04

Sorry meant to say female oppression not Male Grin

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 08/08/2018 09:05

But who walks around in a balaclava

Children and those on motorbikes (who still wear them in garages the trend being those scary skull print skin things i often see) and those who rob banks

argue against it but this is one of those hypothetical reasons that have never been raised as an issue

Cuppaorwine · 08/08/2018 09:05

Of course it’s up for debate. All religious practises and all cultural practises must be. And this is quite easy to do without being insulting to individuals.

And isn’t it always women who are insulted aye??

I kind think the burka should be banned in. Britain outside of the home as it plays to the narrative of good women equating being coveted up and silent verses the ‘slag’ wear what she likes and cheap enough to abuse. That had led to the Muslim grooming gangs

However I am then aware that my view is controlling what women wear to police men’s behaviour.

It’s a debate most definatly but no call for insults.

Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow · 08/08/2018 09:10

I actually agree with the entire speech made by Boris. Most sensible comments he had made

But I would ban it

BartholinsSister · 08/08/2018 09:11

Why do people conflate Islamaphobia with racism?
Surely Islam is an ideology, so therefore a legitimate target for criticism, and perhaps fear, just the same as any other theoretical construct.

downthestrada · 08/08/2018 09:11

Boris Johnson has said some awful things, this seems like the least of it to me. Remember, he actually argued AGAINST a burkha ban, he just made comments about the way the women wearing them look.

Yes get him out of politics, but not because of this.

He argued against a ban, but still wants to let his followers know that he’s still on their side. The Tommy Robinson type islamaphobic followers. That’s why he talks of “bank robbers” and “post boxes”. Dropping it in to keep them on side. It’s very clever politics.

Then it’s further justified by Rees Mogg, who comes in with his ‘oh so reasonable manner’ to back Boris up, whilst carefully omitting the choice words used.

LassWiADelicateAir · 08/08/2018 09:14

but who walks around in a balaclava

Again- irrelevant. You cannot make a case for one type of covering being fine and all others not. If it is absurd or culturally inappropriate to go around wearing a balaclava at all times then it is equally absurd to wear a niqab or a burqa.

downthestrada · 08/08/2018 09:17

It is getting to the point that no criticism can be made of Islam or the culture of some of its adherents, without calls of racism. If we are allowed to critique other religions, then Islam cannot and must not be exempt from that.

scaryteacher He was doing such a great job of explaining his views on the burka/Niqab before he used dehumanising terms. He is a smart man and perfectly capable of arguing his point without insulting people. He just doesn’t want to, which is what we have to keep in mind.

I think people do want to critique religions, including Islam, but not in the manner which Boris chose.

And, why is it always that women are the easy targets? Why didn’t he choose to insult the oppressors? Probably because that would have caused him more bother.

Cuppaorwine · 08/08/2018 09:20

BatholinsSister

You see it again and again don’t you?

I find the term islamophobia problematic because anyone has the right to critisise and to take the piss out of Islam just like any religion and culture. We cannot allow any religion to feel above this or a protected area to avoid causing offence.

But critisising individuals no.

That is not racist.

bellinisurge · 08/08/2018 09:20

He likes to slip in horrible dog whistle crap and think no one noticed.

PerkingFaintly · 08/08/2018 09:21

Well this all seems terribly familiar for those of us following another of Steve Bannon's protégés.

What is Donald Trump's family-separation endgame?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44461772
Mr Trump was right about the political appeal of the Muslim ban, and he appears to be betting that he's right about this immigration policy, as well.
[...]
To counteract [an upsurge in voting by Democrats], Mr Trump is reportedly seeking "unexpected cultural flashpoints" to get his base equally enthusiastic about voting - particularly in the Trump-friendly states that are 2018's Senate battlegrounds.

and

Trump's real plan for 2018
www.axios.com/trump-plan-2018-culture-war-infrastructure-budget-471751f9-7548-4a8d-9c0e-33f509a4626e.html

So ignore the documents and blather today. Here's Trump's real plan for '18:

• A source close to the White House tells me that with an eye to getting Republicans excited about voting for Republicans in midterms, the president this year will be looking for "unexpected cultural flashpoints" — like the NFL and kneeling — that he can latch onto in person and on Twitter.
• The source said Trump "is going to be looking for opportunities to stir up the base, more than focusing on any particular legislation or issue."
• One of D.C.'s savviest Democrats had come to the same conclusion, without my even mentioning it.
• Matt Bennett, co-founder of the centrist Democratic group Third Way, said: "His administration is cranking away on these Potemkin legislative efforts."
• "But what he's really interested in is storylines revolving around him — driving the conversation with whatever crosses his mind at that moment, and then comes out of his mouth or his fingers."

Cuppaorwine · 08/08/2018 09:22

downtheStrsda

Exactly