To think Boris Johnson should be be thrown out of Tory party?

[crunchymint]

He is clearly racist. He should be thrown out of the Conservative party.

Re hate speech that's tricky.

Boris could be said to be committing hate speech agaisnt this garment. But the other end of hate speech are some extremist Muslim clerics like abu hamza actually brain washing people to kill.. Which they have followed out and actually killed people... So no I don't think hate speech will be scrapped.

Darling

Yes of course it will but you would be hard pressed to Prove that by this speech. Boris will be all injured and cite his liberality.

The general public will support him as let’s fsce it burkas do look ridiculous and if he’s found guilty he will be more popular than ever.

Job done for Boris.

Muslim women will have to not only suffer being swathed head to toe in black and have either their whole faces coveted or just a slit to see through and in addition more insults and ridicule.

Muslim men?? No they are fine. As ever.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/06/burqa-bashing-mohammed-ahmed-mohamed-image

As we are posting old CIF pieces, where is the outrage here?

The progressive iman who is trying to drag his religion into this century has been attacked, had death threats etc against him.

He has fought agaisnt the Muslim Council of UK, he has also fought sexism and fights for gay rights within islam.

He has said we should all be on guard, Muslims, Christians, atheists etc etc agaisnt the creep of extremism... He is a deeply religious and spiritual person.

I think that given the current mood for Islamophobia in the media, on social media and in society Is it 'current'?

MrsAidanTurner, I wasn't being cheeky and I'm not 'lumping' anyone together. Neither do I disagree with you about subjugation and degradation. But you've missed or not understood my point about non-verbal cues and reading people's faces etc.

Cuppaorwine, I don't disagree, it will all be fine for Muslim men and for Boris Johnson.
However, I'm really sick of you and others wheeling out the 'Let’s face it, chaps, we all agree burkas look ridiculous don't we?' stuff.
No, not all of us do.

papa

If my daughter started wearing one I would be afraid of a hell of a lot more than the actual wearing of the garment

It screams extremism. Would she be allowed out without her dh or son or uncle? What other freedoms have been stolen from her due to being female? What religious atmosphere is taking place in the home? Those and so many more questions would deeply worry me.

is it “current”

Well it’s happening now, so......

Your use of 'current' suggests some dramatic change of mood.

people are getting so caught up in semantics that the point is being missed entirely.

That he was against the ban and it was all "coded" racism?

The fact that there is a significant majority that agree with him?

Boris Johnson doesn't really care about all the issues he brings up. People are pawns in his game. Including his poor wife and the women in his life he has mistreated.

It’s his opinion on an item of misogynistic clothing. It’s not a remark against a race. Racism gets banded about too much and it’s losing it’s true meaning.

I still think he is a dick though

Darling

Absolutely your opinion and yes I was wrong to say most people find the full face covering of women, or just a slit for their eyes ridiculous.

But I can’t for the life of me see anyone can justify a full face covering of any women being any thing other than degrading dehumanising and inherently mysogynistic impractical uncomfortable divisive un inclusive and having nothing to do with Islam.

As for little girls I think if we don’t ban it for women it should be banned for under 16s in this country.

Johnson is being investigated because not only are his comments about 'letter boxes' etc potentially Islamophobic, they also allow the bigot in the street to believe that he/she can make similar comments. And perhaps worse

No, Johnson is being investigated partly due to the outrage machine and partly due to internal party politics, its a tricky situation at play as they could make him stronger.

This potentially islamophobic is the slippery slope of the Hate speech laws other in the thread have mentioned, but, as some idiot reported him to the police they have come out and said that he has not committed an offence so there is no actual potential in it.

Absolutely your opinion and yes I was wrong to say most people find the full face covering of women, or just a slit for their eyes ridiculous.

Actually there is a majority that want to ban it unfortunately, ~60% and at that number it crosses party lines to be brushed under the carpet of being the far right etc.

No, Johnson is being investigated partly due to the outrage machine and partly due to internal party politics, its a tricky situation at play as they could make him stronger.

Well actual people are outraged and I think people do have a right to their opinion on what he said. Some people may have been voting conservative but now want to know if the party stands for the types of things that Boris says. Seeing as there has been several instances of this and people saying there’s an issue with islamaphobia within the party, then they should be looking into it. With everyone exasperated at the lack of action in the Labour Party re. anti Semitism then they would look bad to be also doing nothing.

I agree that it could make him stronger. Even on his thread there are people saying that they agree with everything he said but at the same time saying they want a ban. It’s unreal!

I am conflicted as I said before about a ban although I would support a ban on school girls wearing face veils. That to me is abuse.

I am conflicted, as I imagine many feminists are, by knowing it’s routes are mysogynistic but clearly some women are ok with that and choose to wear it. Telling women is acceptable to wear and what is not is what fundamentalists do. Although of course women may have choice here in the UK but they have no choices in Islamic countries.

This is only going to be more debated as liberal
Western democracies feel under threat by radical
Islam. Not only our country is becoming more polarised but the world is.

It’s going to be a very difficult future.

Well actual people are outraged and I think people do have a right to their opinion on what he said.

Of course they do, and they are right to, but lets not pretend there is a large overlap of the chronically offended people arguing over whether Boris has been racist or not. The fact that Burqa/Niqab is not a requirement in Islam can be now broad brushed into potentially islamophobic backs up the point

Some people may have been voting conservative but now want to know if the party stands for the types of things that Boris says. Seeing as there has been several instances of this and people saying there’s an issue with islamophobia within the party, then they should be looking into it.

There are now rumours they may not even investigate, with Bannon in the wings any form of sanctions could make him some kind of martyr and with a 60% split in favour of banning the burka it splits the party lines and feeds into the elite hushing up difficult subjects etc etc.

A lot of people agree with him because they understand the political landscape, by using provocative language he's kicked off a national debate, which is exactly what you need to do these days to get anywhere.

If you're just all calm and polite and respectful then you might make friends but nobody will ever hear about it. This reaction from the its racist crowd, anti Tory just shows how terrified they are of having any actual opinions. The appeasing tactic of trying to make everyone happy always fails.

The fact that he has stuck by his words shows that he is willing to own his opinions and his decisions, while some may not like his words, at least you know where he stands on this issue, it's what the voting population wanted, not a suit with a different coloured tie.

Besides, he doesn't even want to ban the burka, but there are definite concerns around whether its use is healthy for the people wearing it or society as a whole.

It is Bannon 101, behind the bluster and bombast he made some genuinely good points, how much involvement the state should have in people's lives/choice of clothing.

But instead some decide to look for coded racism to attack the man instead of the ball.

I’m not sure if I’m in the “it’s racist” crowd, but I know I always state when I think things are racist.

I just find it funny that Boris is seen as owning his opinions, “you know where he stands”, he says what he thinks etc. But, when the “it’s racist” crowd state their opinions, some people are saying that that’s a bad thing or they are always offended. Both sides seem to be trying to say that the other side is silencing them, I just see it as people stating their opinions and other people disagreeing.

I agree that it’s definitely Bannon tactics.

He did make some good points in his article, but he specifically chose to use those terms in order to create this situation. He doesn’t even want a ban, and yet people that want a ban are saying they agree with everything he said.

I think it’s possible to both attack the man and his Bannon-esque tactics and also at the same time have a meaningful discussion about the issue. Of course, that’s not what Boris wants - I just don’t think he’s interested in people noting the good points he made. He’s only interested in appealing to the right people.

I think though the feeling is that some people feel they can’t speak their minds on religion or culture without others trying to shut them up and throwing about accusations of racism islamaphobia etc and then Using the law to gag free speech.

Farrage and Boris know this very well. It worked brilliantly for Farrage. It may with Boris.

And one persons hate speech is another’s free speech!

Unless one is actually inciting crimes it’s a very tricky balance.

As for little girls I think if we don’t ban it for women it should be banned for under 16s in this country

absolutely. But how could we monitor it realistically when their faces are covered. I really cannot understand women of any culture thinking that this is ok when it actually has no real footing in Islam. This is purely a man made effort to hide females away from any kind of liberation and independence.

Yep SeeetSongBird I suppose you could just blanket ban it as not part of any uniform dress code but Cameron was behind the increase in faith schools so I suppose it would just lead to more girls leaving main stream schools or being home schooled.

Probably suit the hard liners. Keep their girls away from western influences.

We never really got to grips with the appaling way traveller girls are pulled out of school early so I have no hope this can be solved.

When it comes the the rights of women and girls there are always many to site religious and cultural reasons for mysogynistic abuse.

And lots of women on here would call you and me racist, xenophobic islamaphobic etc while those same women enjoy white privileged life styles and virtue signal their acceptance of misogyny.

Cuppaorwine - I have always very strongly felt that what differentiated us from the very cultures we oppose is that we allow people to dress how they wish. Banning any form of dress was behaving in exactly the same way as the cultures the UK wishes to distance itself from.

Then I moved a bit closer to sitting on the fence.

Now I think I'd rather move to a "French position" - though that would cause protests in the UK probably - which is no overt religious symbols and no face coverings at school, work or in civic buildings. Yes, for sure I understand this means some women not leaving the house but I cannot see how we can be seen to endorse or "tolerate" (i.e. get accustomed bit by bit to something offensive to our systems) women/girls covering their faces in public simply because they are female. The message to the majority of boys, men, girls and women in our culture has to be stronger: cover up if you wish, wear what you want, but do so in personal time and spaces.

I think though the feeling is that some people feel they can’t speak their minds on religion or culture without others trying to shut them up and throwing about accusations of racism islamaphobia etc and then Using the law to gag free speech.

Well people need to understand that everybody has a right to free speech, even people who disagree with them or don’t like what they say (or think its racist even if they are wrong). Otherwise, then we are shutting up the people who want to criticise and say when they think things are racist/sexist and we shouldn’t be shutting up anyone.

I dont think there’s an issue with people speaking freely at the moment. It’s freer than ever.