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Original poster

To think Boris Johnson should be be thrown out of Tory party?

999 replies

crunchymint · 07/08/2018 22:26

He is clearly racist. He should be thrown out of the Conservative party.

OP posts:
papayasareyum · 09/08/2018 16:07

so, pink girly clothes are comparable to clothing which makes the wearer completely anonymous thus rendering them not just “modest” whatever that means, but also invisible and therefore redundant and unable to fully communicate with their face? Nah, I’m not seeing a fair analogy at all there.

papayasareyum · 09/08/2018 16:08

I’m wondering how you would feel if your daughter chose to marry a Muslim man and decided to start covering herself? How would you feel about that?

downthestrada · 09/08/2018 16:09

almost 90% of people in the itv survey agree with Boris. It wouldn’t surprise me if this statement leaves the way to his being PM. Say what you want about BoJo, but he understands people and his comments reflect what the overwhelming majority think in the UK.

  • 90% of people on that survey think that he shouldn't apologise. The question wasn't about whether they agreed with him.
  • Boris understands people well enough to manipulate them.
  • If you are saying that the overwhelming majority in the UK want to ban full face veils, then his comments did not reflect. In the article, he himself says that he does not want a ban. If this is what you mean, then he is disagreeing with the majority. But, it seems that that doesn't matter - Boris gets to be the new poster boy regardless of whether his views match the public or not. All he has to do is say some insulting things about Muslim women. This political stuff is a piece of piss to him!
papayasareyum · 09/08/2018 16:10

yes derxa. I’ve also read personal stories from women who say they don’t feel oppressed by being “surrendered wives” but happy and fulfilled. It doesn’t mean i have to like or respect their choice either.

Cuppaorwine · 09/08/2018 16:15

DottieRichardson

Not sure where being brave comes into it? I have seen women head to toe with face covered on a boiling hot day with their dh in shorts sandles and a cap. Not sure why you would see her dress sense as brave exactly.

There’s nothing brave in mysogynistic practises abs there’s definatly nothing remotely brave in dressing younger and younger girls this way.

It’s not even a religious requirement.

derxa · 09/08/2018 16:15

papaya I agree with you. And most of the comments BTL agree too.

papayasareyum · 09/08/2018 16:15

An Imam spoke out and said there was no need for women to cover themselves, nothing in the Koran to command it. Is he islamphobic too?

Justanotherlurker · 09/08/2018 16:15

Trying to bring in guilt by association of the Free Speech rallies, "coded racism", looks like we on a double down stage now.

Where does the Imam from the front page of the times fit into your guilt by association approach

Cuppaorwine · 09/08/2018 16:18

What Boris has really said is don’t ban the burka but let’s take the piss out of those who wear it.

If he had said ban it perhaps that would have been more honest but that wasn’t his intention of course. He’s a very astute manipulative man.

ButtermilkBiscuits · 09/08/2018 16:25

Obviously

YeTalkShiteHen · 09/08/2018 16:27

An Imam spoke out and said there was no need for women to cover themselves, nothing in the Koran to command it

Did he mock women who do? Did he have a history of making statements against minority groups using questionable language?

papayasareyum · 09/08/2018 16:34

YeTalkShite, have you watched the video up thread which shows an interview with him? He speaks in very strong terms about face coverings and calls them “masks” and “silly” so he’s much more strident than Boris. He says he’d ban them altogether and he’s an Imam!

YeTalkShiteHen · 09/08/2018 16:35

YeTalkShite, have you watched the video up thread which shows an interview with him? He speaks in very strong terms about face coverings and calls them “masks” and “silly” so he’s much more strident than Boris. He says he’d ban them altogether and he’s an Imam!

That’s not what I asked.

papayasareyum · 09/08/2018 16:37

And I answered you. The Imam calls them “silly” and “masks” and agrees with the letterbox analogy.

mirialis · 09/08/2018 16:39

As has been pointed out - the niqab and burka are not Islamic.

Girls and young women wandering around in bare feet at kicking out time, dodging the kebabs/broken glass/vomit on the streets, because their mega heels are too painful to wear by that stage look ridiculous. Their male companions are in comfy shoes.

Jennifer Lawrence standing in daytime freezing temperatures in a skimpy dress looked ridiculous. Her male companions all had multiple layers and coats on.

Girls and young women wandering around covered head to toe except for their eyes and struggling to even sit and eat/drink something - be it finger food or cutlery food - in a cafe as a consequence look ridiculous. Their male companions have no such issues, not having to wear gloves or hide their mouths.

If women insist on making their interaction with the world uncomfortable and difficult for appearance sake when there is no need for it and their male companions are doing something way more sensible, then they will be ridiculed (or pitied when it is suspected they have no choice) by some people, both men and women.

That the latter group are being attacked is abhorrent but it doesn't make their choice any less ridiculous; indeed, if they are claiming they do it out of liberation and free choice then it makes them even more ridiculous.

YeTalkShiteHen · 09/08/2018 16:41

And I answered you. The Imam calls them “silly” and “masks” and agrees with the letterbox analogy.

Does he have a history of mocking minorities using questionable language?

hilbobaggins · 09/08/2018 16:54

Investigating Boris for Islamophobia is absolutely bonkers.

I think people are getting confused between tolerance and respect. There is a difference. It is perfectly possible to tolerate something without respecting it. In fact it is possible to tolerate something you absolutely hate, which is pretty much what I feel about the burqua. The philosopher John Locke made this argument originally, I believe, and it's at the heart of enlightened tolerance. It's an incredibly sophisticated idea and we would all do well to revisit it.

Brendan O'Neil really helped me to sort out my ideas about the burqua. Here's what I now think: banning the burqua is wrong because it's not tolerant. However it's also wrong to demand that people respect the burqua. I don't want the state to tell me what to wear, but I also don't want the state to police my thoughts and attitudes towards religion.

Women who wear the burqua shouldn't be punished, but they also shouldn't expect society to validate them. You have the right to wear what you want to wear, but I don't respect you if you put something over your face so that I can't properly see you.

To quote O'Neil: "Tolerance is about letting people believe what they want to believe, and allowing everyone else criticise them, mock them and ridicule them. It's not pretty, but that's the price of freedom."

Cuppaorwine · 09/08/2018 16:55

mirialis

Agree with you.

DarlingNikita · 09/08/2018 17:01

That the latter group are being attacked is abhorrent but it doesn't make their choice any less ridiculous

Turn that statement round and I find it easy to agree with:

'It doesn't make the latter group's choice any less ridiculous but that they are being attacked is abhorrent.'

Johnson is being investigated because not only are his comments about 'letter boxes' etc potentially Islamophobic, they also allow the bigot in the street to believe that he/she can make similar comments. And perhaps worse. Dottie has cited an example of physical violence towards a woman wearing Muslim dress. Will people feel less, or more, empowered to do such things in the wake of Johnson's column, do we think?

hilbobaggins · 09/08/2018 17:20

But, DarlingNikita, you can't restrict Person A's freedom of speech because of the fear that what he says might incite violence in Person B, if Person A isn't actually inciting violence. That way madness lies.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 09/08/2018 17:21

The entire concept of 'hate speech' will be scrapped and people will be allowed to speak their minds, whether this causes offence or not, so long as there is no incitement to violence

Providing the caveat about violence was kept then yes, this is something I can see happening sooner or later ... the problem being that there seems no real agreement (and certainly not enough case law) on what hate speech actually IS

If somebody claimed "all x's are evil and should be shot" then obviously there'd be wide agreement, but there remain too many for whom it appears to mean something they happen to disagree with - and to legislate on that kind of basis seems to me to be dangerous in the extreme

MrsAidanTurner · 09/08/2018 17:22

But the veil can be removed. Autism or disabilities cannot.

I can't believe you have the cheek to lump the two together. As someone with a close family member who has a disability I find it absurd and rude. One is born with something they cannot help. The other is born into subjugation and degradation and we as a society can and should fight that, or they choose to do it to themselves.

mirialis · 09/08/2018 17:22

Johnson is being investigated because not only are his comments about 'letter boxes' etc potentially Islamophobic, they also allow the bigot in the street to believe that he/she can make similar comments. And perhaps worse

If you have power and call someone evil and a threat, then you bear some responsibility for empowering people to attack them (as is the problem with hate preachers of all sorts from far right to far left).

It is beyond the pale to suggest that saying someone looks ridiculous - no matter what your status - carries responsibility if others attack them.

The Charlie Hebdo staff were murdered for a cartoon and we are now investigating someone for writing a column in which he said that women wearing burka/niqab looked like letterboxes???

YeTalkShiteHen · 09/08/2018 17:23

I think that given the current mood for Islamophobia in the media, on social media and in society, Boris knew exactly what he was doing and it’s had exactly the effect he’s intended.

  1. his profile is raised again just in time for a leadership contest

  2. people are getting so caught up in semantics that the point is being missed entirely.

  3. the whataboutery where Corbyn is thrown at anyone disagreeing with Boris must be making him rub his little hands with glee

  4. it dehumanises women wearing religious clothing.