To think Boris Johnson should be be thrown out of Tory party?

[crunchymint]

He is clearly racist. He should be thrown out of the Conservative party.

so who actually supports labour these days - about 1% more of the population than those who support the Tory Party, according to the latest polls.

about 1% more of the population than those who support the Tory Party, according to the latest polls.

I thought they was neck and neck at 38%?

Huh genuinely missed one..

No they are not.

There are guidelines for both anti Semitic (pity Corbyn doesn’t seem to know them)and islamophobic hate crimes and for racism and racist remarks.

This still allows us all to discuss critisise and examine both cultural practise and religious beliefs.

I can say I think the Islamic religion or Christianity is a load of bollocks. I can say I think burkas look ridiculous and I can say I think FGM is barbaric and getting your child christened is silly. I can say all of those things and their are neither racist anti semetic or islamaphobic.

I see you want to shut down debate but it’s not that easy innthis country just yet thankfully.

Boris will be found not guilty because he isn’t. He was rude insulting and mysogynistic but none of those are racist!

You said you cannot be racist against a religion or culture which is a life style choice any one can make

That is what you said. And you are wrong.

Islamaphobia and anti-semitism are forms of racism.

How do you not know this??

I’m not interested in shutting down the debate and FYI I haven’t said that boris remarks were islamaphobic/racist.

I think you are very mixed up.

He is horribly (and chronically) rude but that doesn't yet constitute a hate crime according to officers consulted by Cressida Dick.

I am worried that she had to ask though.

Cuppawine , following on from your logic, do you think if a Labour politician said Judasim was a load of bollocks they shouldn't be accused of anti-semitism ?

Cuppawine why not start your own thread about Labour and specifically Corbyn, but why come on to this thread and start derailing, which is of course the usual whataboutery whenever anyone brings up the Tories

why not start your own thread about Labour and specifically Corbyn, but why come on to this thread and start derailing, which is of course the usual whataboutery whenever anyone brings up the Tories

Whataboutery and derailing isn't just confined to when talking the Tories tbf.

Helmet: I guess that some people are going on the thought process that racism relates to racial bigotry.

Islam in my experience has people from a wide variety of ethnic heritages. I have not studied criminology or sociology and I wouldn't think of religion as race iyswim.

I realise my kids' generation call a lot more racism, right down to national stereotyping. They get perplexed if I ask if more local prejudice is then racism. (Boris's Liverpool comments spring to mind.)

It's not surprising to me that people don't have a vocabulary in common.

almost 90% of people in the itv survey agree with Boris. It wouldn’t surprise me if this statement leaves the way to his being PM. Say what you want about BoJo, but he understands people and his comments reflect what the overwhelming majority think in the UK

Boris's comments about not being able to see faces was a false point which allowed him to lead into 'ridiculing' Muslim women. David Blunkett the Labour MP was blind, he couldn't see anyone's face, it had no bearing on his ability to do his job. Also Muslim women remove their veils when the situation requires it, in banks etc... passport control and so on...

Normalising the ridicule of Muslim women is dangerous, many Muslim women who wear any outward symbol of Islam have been attacked in the streets. Only last year a Muslim woman was badly beaten, as she lay on the ground and her attacker kicked her pregnant stomach, he shouted insults about what her 'clown' costume. She lost her baby.

Boris Johnson is savvy enough to know what he can and can't get away with saying. What he was doing in his article is a common tactic, it's widely used by Trump, and Boris is supported as a future leader by Trump and has been meeting with Bannon a former advisor to Trump. There is a name for this kind of tactic, ways to be offensive without seeming to cross the line. It's called 'coded racism' if you don't know what is meant by that you will find a good explanation here:
www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/31/16226488/trump-identity-politics-racism

People are aware enough to know that they can't outright say certain things about Islam, criticising the burqa or what Muslim women wear is often a way to do this without seeming to. Some people criticise it because they have a conscious or unconscious prejudice others because they know all too well that they are.

Muslim women are debating issues of clothing themselves, there are many, many intelligent, articulate Muslim women writing/blogging/ talking on TV and radio/ so the issue is widely discussed. It's not appropriate to decide for women, to do so is in itself discriminatory and patronising. If Muslim women want support then they should get it, but deciding others know better what is/isn't right for a community is unacceptable. Otherwise Muslim women should be given the space to work these things out for themselves.

If those who do not support certain forms of dress for women as demeaning or otherwise there are plenty of things to address:

1. Long fingernails restrict what women can do, harbour bacteria and fungal infections and are a health hazard to the women who have them and those that come in contact. Don't see anyone campaigning on that

1. High heels deform feet, shorten tendons, restrict movement and are symbols of sexual availability don't see anyone campaigning on that

1. Chest binders deform young women, impede healthy bodily development, feed into the narrative that women's bodies are unacceptable, the wearing of these is growing. Why is no one looking to ban these?

It is hypocritical to point the finger at what other women wear on the grounds it's offensive, misogynistic and so on when many so-called 'Western' forms of clothing are equally so as well as unhealthy. At least a Burqa (incredibly rare in this country by the way, and couldn't easily be banned as often worn by tourists, wives of visiting business people with whom the UK has strong links and gains much revenue) does not cause deformities or spread disease.

On to Boris, Boris has overtaken Javid in leadership polls. One of the issues that the party is having problems with is a swing to UKIP, which happened in the last council elections. All evidence suggests that 'ridiculing the burqa' plays well with this type of swing voter, it also plays well with the party grassroots.

Boris is out for himself, he was a 'liberal' conservative when Cameron's group was the dominant in the party, now that there is a split Boris sees the right of the party gaining power, so has joined them. At the moment he is in a grouping with Rees-Mogg ( anti abortion, supports hard Brexit, but has moved his own business out of the country, wonder why) and Liam Fox. Depending on how things play out the intention is that either Boris will be future leader and Rees-Mogg Chancellor. They are also linked to advising those with investments to get out of sterling, and invest in foreign holdings. They are moving things to the right and are likely to end up tanking the economy. But it doesn't matter because they and their friends will make a killing.

I’m surprised that many people have said the niquab is extremely rare in the UK. I was visiting a relative in hospital in yorkshire recently and saw many woman in full veil with a tiny slit for eyes only. Many of the hospital staff were in full robes/veils covering everything except eyes too.

It would be difficult for either Labour or Tory moderates to form a party, firstly the funding is not there, secondly their original parties would field candidates against them and that would split votes and make them vulnerable. The Labour party already did this in the early 80s when a group split off to form the SDP, as a result years unopposed Conservative government. I think that Labour is unlikely to seriously oppose Brexit, Corbyn has a long history of anti-Europe voting, in addition to which the EU regulations would make some of his plans to take over companies unworkable.

A niqab is not a burqa/burka, it's an entirely different thing.

Nice to have pointed out that Muslim women are being savagely beaten to the point of miscarriage and that's what you come up with. Great priorities there.

this is exactly the sort of niquab I saw many women wearing in Yorkshire. It might not be a burqua, but works pretty much the same way, ie. makes the wearer invisible and anonymous, pretty much:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niqāb

Yes but the bottom half detaches and women do this when they need to talk etc...I worked with young women for years including a lot of Muslim women so am very aware of this, also lived in a predominantly Muslim part of London for nine. What is your point re: the actual discussion?

I’m just not seeing a huge difference between niquab and burqua and surprised that people are implying that niquab is somehow ok whereas burqua obviously isn’t. They’re both oppressive to women and I won’t pretend otherwise in an attempt to be culturally sensitive. It doesn’t mean I’m racist, bigoted or islamophobic either, before you jump in with that.

violet

Of course it isn’t! If you said Jews are conspiring to finance the worlds banks or deny the holocaust that would be anitsemetic.

People say religion is bollocks every day of the week.

It would be rude and not a vote winner but not against the law.

poster

I will post what I like thanks just like you.

Papaya fine I find make-up, high heels, long nails, chest binders, and so on culturally oppressive, so I don't wear them, but maybe I should stop other women from doing so, because on the basis of the arguments on here it's suggested that women who wear things that others don't like are too stupid to have thought about that themselves. And there is a difference between saying 'I don't like something' and ridiculing people who do, particularly when those people are being attacked in the streets. I think women who wear outward signs of Islam are brave, every time they go out they face being harassed, spat at, ridiculed or attacked. They need support not ridicule, they can work out their clothing for themselves. Brave, brave women.

And if people are justifying their comments on the basis of 'free speech' then 'freedom of religious expression' comes under that too. Free speech is extended to freedom to wear things that express our 'free speech' too. You can't have it both ways. Interesting that free speech coming up, the recent free speech march was also a support for Tommy Robinson march and attended by many of his supporters. I'm all for free speech because then the racists would come out of the closet and stop hiding behind their 'coded' language and those of us who don't support them could see what we're dealing with.

I’m pretty sure the nine year old girl fully robed and wearing hijab at my daughter’s school isn’t being brave, but is being told what to do by her parents. How much subtle social and cultural pressure to conform and wear modest clothing? A huge amount, I expect. If you’re ok with that, I wonder why. I’m not ok with that.

I'm not okay with girls wearing the kind of pink, girly things that reinforce stereotypes. .So what? Doesn't give me a right to stop them or the ones who buy their clothes. Are you going to come out and address the actual question about BJ or are you just a gf?