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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Boris Johnson should be be thrown out of Tory party?

999 replies

crunchymint · 07/08/2018 22:26

He is clearly racist. He should be thrown out of the Conservative party.

OP posts:
Cuppaorwine · 09/08/2018 10:44

I have criticised both sides. Corbyns far left momentum and the rabid brexiteers far right are equally racist and mysogynistic. I think that’s a given isn’t it?

I agree with downthestrada on all points.

I disagree free speech is under any threat as I hear comments every day I wouldn’t have heard so much in the late 90s. That’s not in itself bad. We do need to be free to criticise and examine all religious and cultural practises.

What’s new I think Is the polarisation of the population, hard left to hard right and instead of trying to bring the country together out politicians seem hell bent on fanning the flames of division.

Bombardier25966 · 09/08/2018 10:46

@Justanotherlurker You just need to look at where the UKIP votes went in the local elections to see where the kippers are now at home, and in the majority of areas that was the Conservatives. I've been canvassing in a strong UKIP/ Leave area and they see Corbyn as a pro immigration friend of Muslims, they can't stand him.

Rosstac · 09/08/2018 10:48

Helmetbymidnight He didn't, they haven't, They could have still turned away from it if they wanted or felt they should have, if the vote had gone as they expected they would not have pushed to leave,

Bombardier25966 · 09/08/2018 10:49

He didn’t realise how eager thick people are to blame foreigners for their problems.

Boris gets that though.

Yep, and he feeds on it. Boris sits back and laughs at the very people that think he's great. It would be funny if it didn't have so much impact on the rest of the population.

Helmetbymidnight · 09/08/2018 10:50

Surely the party in power who are enacting discriminating policies/hostile environment and pathetic jibes against minorities DO deserve slightly greater scrutiny and criticism than the powerless opposition?

That’s basic, isn’t it?

GhostofFrankGrimes · 09/08/2018 10:51

politicians seem hell bent on fanning the flames of division.

Division is not new. In the 50/60's black people were on the receiving end of the hate. In the 70/80's it was Irish people. Today it is Muslims. There were always elements "fanning the flames" (usually the gutter press and a handful of rabble rousers). It is worse now because Brexit and Trump have emboldened/given a platform to those, previously "shouted down".

Cuppaorwine · 09/08/2018 10:55

Well what do you expect? Look I know it’s unpalatable to some on here but there are a lot of people who do feel that immigration has become uncontrollable and with austerity and the cutting of services the impact on these communities has been dire. Who would they blame? I

Corbyn has done absolutely nothing to either understand or counteract these fears indeed he defended the policy of workers sending home child benefit. Of course that’s going to piss people off. Never mind that happened on a Tory watch!!!!

Momentum lack the skills the judgment and the leadership and have hijacked labour. They have no counter arguments.

Brexit was a two fingered gesture to the establishment and it was totally about immigration.

Labour will rue the day they allowed momentum to take over. And so will the country as we seem to be heading nearer the USA Trump politics than ever.

livingontheedgeee · 09/08/2018 10:56

He said something which could be offensive to a minority but would we still have this furore if someone suggested his clothes look like they've never seen an iron? No, we wouldn't . Get a grip people.

hilbobaggins · 09/08/2018 10:56

@Plimmy We will live in a much better society when hate speech is driven out.

Then you're advocating for the suppression of ideas and against freedom of speech. Why do you get to decide what makes a "better society"? And who decides what sort of "hate speech" should "driven out"? For example - is someone putting anti-religious leaflets in a church hate speech? An elderly couple with deeply held religious beliefs about marriage not wanting to bake a cake for a gay wedding and not realising that this kind of idea is now considered unacceptable? Someone tweeting something randomly obnoxious about women or ethnic minorities? What about something obnoxious about white men? A youtuber teaching his dog to do a Nazi salute as a joke to piss off his girlfriend? A student wearing a Mexican sombrero during Halloween? Apparently people can be offended by all these things. Should all these people be arrested?

Stopping people from saying things doesn't stop them thinking them. If you stop people from saying things, do you really think those ideas go away? I would argue very strongly that they do not. They fester, spread and grow in the dark. And the rest of us don't hear them, so we don't get to practise our arguments against them. And then we're blindsided by Trump or Brexit.

I'm surprised at people on this thread saying they'd be scared if the hate speech laws were abolished. What's so frightening about speech?

*@Ghost Campaigners have spend generations fighting for equality for marginalised groups - whether women, black people, LGBT groups. Their successes are now enshrined in various laws.

I am not about to see this ripped up so that some twat can be racist/homophobic/misogynist. I'm not going to apologise for "the liberals" stealing the bigots "fun". *

Of course, of course! Equality in this country is what makes it such a great place to live. But I'm not talking about abolishing anti-discrimination laws. I'm saying that people should be allowed to express their ideas - whatever those ideas are and however offensive they seem to be. I mean, at some point in our history, expressing the idea that peasants should be allowed to read the bible, or homosexuality should be legal, or that women should have the vote, would have been deeply offensive ideas. Without some people taking opposing viewpoints, and holding ideas even when the majority of the population consider them "offensive", we have no conflict and no discussion. And without discussion, there's no genuine progress.

longwayoff · 09/08/2018 10:57

Rosstac I'd be absolutely shocked if politicians weren't deceiving people, how else would you expect them to move agenda forward? Deviation, obfuscation and downright lies are part of the stock in trade and we all expect it.

Cuppaorwine · 09/08/2018 10:58

Ghosto

Nonsense. The divisions in the 50/60s were not encouraged by politicians and the one that did Enoch Powell was vilified by other politicians.

I was st school 70/80s and there were no divisions between Irish and English school kids. Everyone blamed the terrorists and not the ordinary people.

It’s the politicians now who are fanning the hate

LoveInTokyo · 09/08/2018 10:58

He said something which could be offensive to a minority but would we still have this furore if someone suggested his clothes look like they've never seen an iron? No, we wouldn't . Get a grip people.

Boris is an extremely privileged white man, not a persecuted minority.

FFS.

Cuppaorwine · 09/08/2018 11:00

Hilbobaggins

I agree with every thing in your post. Well said

Helmetbymidnight · 09/08/2018 11:01

would we still have this furore if someone suggested his clothes look like they've never seen an iron? No, we wouldn't . Get a grip people

Wow. Yes, the pm in waiting, ex foreign secretary, multi millionaire leading politician writes a newspaper article suggesting a vulnerable minority group look like bank robbers and letter boxes and that’s exactly the same as me saying that Boris looks a bit crumpled.

Get a brain.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 09/08/2018 11:01

Look I know it’s unpalatable to some on here but there are a lot of people who do feel that immigration has become uncontrollable and with austerity and the cutting of services the impact on these communities has been dire.

Immigration is controllable. May, as home secretary for 6 years had the choice but at least the "go home" vans "fanned the flames" eh? Austerity is Tory ideology not the fault of the EU or "foreigners".

Labour will rue the day they allowed momentum to take over. And so will the country as we seem to be heading nearer the USA Trump politics than ever.

8 years of Tory government but the consequences of their actions/policies are somebody elses fault Hmm. You realise Tories like Liam Fox are quite keen on closer links to the US?

scaryteacher · 09/08/2018 11:03

This www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/08/burka-terrifying-defend-do-muslim-women-like-no-favours was in the Telegraph today. It is behind the pay wall, so I'll post it in full. I thought it was interesting.

'The burka looks ridiculous, and those who defend it do Muslim women like me no favours'

"LOL" was the reply I got from my niqab-wearing best mate when I sent her the article that Boris Johnson wrote for this newspaper on Monday. I don’t like the veil, and like Boris I would never seek to ban it. But the growth of young women wearing it in the UK is concerning, and it’s something we all need to talk about.

My friend and I have had long debates about her choice to wear the veil. As much as she believes it is part of her faith, I feel that it is and was actually a reaction to an identity crisis at a difficult time in her life. After the death of her father she looked to her faith for comfort, and in a post-9/11 world that faith – which is also mine – had become a political one.

I remember first losing my friend to mosque classes and to sister circles and to fundamentalist YouTube videos. Before wearing the niqab, Hannah (not her real name) began by simply wearing the headscarf more. This was something which made her happy and I was supportive; it gave her peace in her hour of need. Faith, and a belief in something bigger, can be beautiful and powerful.

Then the headscarf became a more conservative black dress. The more she attended the mosque, the more I saw her slipping away, so I asked if I could attend one of her classes. Behind a curtain a well-spoken man with a north American accent preached of the one Ummah, the international community of Muslims. He spoke of how we had to let go of Western ideals, reject nationalities and ethnic backgrounds and be one community under God. To me it was all nonsense, but I could see Hannah was taken in by it.

The idea that a woman with a first-class honours degree from one of the UK’s top universities now has to wait for her brother to come along to escort her because her husband is working is mad. And yet it is true. I am told that I am being blasphemous for questioning the veil, and the extreme Wahhabist narrative which justifies the idea that it is required by Islam.

I still remember that evening as we walked home past the bright lights of Westfield, I joked: “I hope you’re not considering going extra and wearing the burka – those things are ridiculous!” And I still feel like that; I tease her by saying I would never know it was her walking past me unless I saw my godchild next to her. I might even have used language a little like Boris’s.

I think I have the right to make these jokes, because, even as a Muslim woman, I am scared of the niqab and the burka. What they represent is a choice to opt out of the democratic society we live in, and the one that has given me, my friend and so many of us education and the ability to achieve.

Those who wear the veil will tell you voting is sinful; they will say the veil makes them feel safe and empowered, yet they are not allowed to travel without a mahram. This word literally means “unmarriageable kin”, with whom marriage or sexual intercourse would be considered haram, illegal in Islam. They, or other people for whom purdah is not obligatory, must escort a woman during any journey longer than a day and a night.

But as a feminist and a Muslim, to not question, reject and, yes, ridicule this garment would be to accept that my faith, the one that gave women rights well before anyone else, is now nothing more than a symbol of violent misogyny taken up in the name of Islam in the countries where women are forced to wear it.

Wearing the full face veil is deeply controversial even within Islam itself. The burka, which has a mesh covering the face, is worn by very few people. But even the niqab, which leaves a space for the eyes, is rarely worn outside Saudi Arabia. Some scholars believe, as I do, that the niqab is un‑Islamic and that devout people should not wear it.

I know many in the UK who wear the veil do it by choice, but that choice is never free or simple. I know too well that trauma is the spur that leads many to take it up. The pressure to wear it is real: even I am having to write this piece under a pseudonym because I am scared of how my friends and relatives would react to it.

So I hope you can understand why I am sick of the idea that, even while I am fighting for my right not to cover up and to be seen as a Muslim at all by some within my community, I now also have to fight well-meaning Lefties who are defending something that cannot be defended.

To normalise the niqab and the burka is also to normalise politics that are anti-choice, anti-LGBT rights and against women’s right to be free from oppression. Those who deem the veil Islamic also support the covering of children as young as seven, thereby sexualising them. They will tell you it’s acceptable for a child to be married off as soon as she starts her periods, even if she is only 11. Domestic abuse is permitted, as that is what was deemed acceptable 700 years ago.

We cannot have this. We cannot be silent and we also cannot call people racist for saying what I and countless other Muslims say. The truth is, my friends and family members who wear the veil do look ridiculous. And I am determined never to follow them.

The author of this piece is writing under a pseudonym

livingontheedgeee · 09/08/2018 11:03

Boris is an extremely privileged white man, not a persecuted minority

He's a white man who, with no say on his part, was born into a family that could be considered, by some people to be privileged. So what? He made his own decisions and forged his own path.

And to insinuate that people who choose to wear veils are all a "persecuted minority" is ridiculous.

I couldn't care less what anyone wears, what colour they are, which religion they practice or anything else. Live and let live but don't try to turn an ill-judged comment into anything more sinister.

FFS.

2up2manydown · 09/08/2018 11:05

scaryteacher thank you for your post.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 09/08/2018 11:05

I was st school 70/80s and there were no divisions between Irish and English school kids. Everyone blamed the terrorists and not the ordinary people.

My Irish family who lived in England during that time say otherwise. I imagine the Guildford Four and Birmingham Six would challenge you also.

www.vice.com/en_uk/article/qvpxzx/what-anti-irish-prejudice-teaches-us-about-islamophobic-hysteria

2up2manydown · 09/08/2018 11:07

Lefties normalising the wearing of a full veil is so insidious and damaging it angers me. All to be perceived as right on and virtue signaling, oh its their choice their free will, women can dress as they please blah blah.

No. That’s not where this comes from. As women can sometimes be complicit in their own abuse and degradation and that of other women. It’s hard to step out of your culture and say no. It’s easier to go along with it and pretend it’s your free will.

Helmetbymidnight · 09/08/2018 11:08

no one here has said the burka is good, have they?

I’d say the vast majority of posters dislike it.

This is about boris being inflammatory.

HesterShaw1 · 09/08/2018 11:09

Lefties normalising the wearing of a full veil is so insidious and damaging it angers me. All to be perceived as right on and virtue signaling, oh its their choice their free will, women can dress as they please blah blah.

Look skywards and you might spot the point of this discussion flying way above your head.

PS you missed off the term "snowflake".

Echo2 · 09/08/2018 11:10

Are all women who wear the burka a persecuted minority? I thought they were strong independent women just exercising their freedom? At least that’s what a burka wearing woman on the news said. But maybe that’s just the case in Europe.

scaryteacher · 09/08/2018 11:10

No problems 2up. It was this *We cannot have this. We cannot be silent and we also cannot call people racist for saying what I and countless other Muslims say.& that struck me in particular.

cocoallure · 09/08/2018 11:11

Amazing post scary thank you 😊