To think Boris Johnson should be be thrown out of Tory party?

[crunchymint]

He is clearly racist. He should be thrown out of the Conservative party.

You can't just just wave away polls that don't agree with your point, they can be wrong but going on these polls then the poster you picked up on, he is saying what 60% of the population want.

The UK's population is nearly 90% caucasian.

If there was a poll suggesting that 80% of British people think all ethnic minorities should have their property and money confiscated and given to white British people, or that they should pay 80% tax to fund the NHS because they have lots of children and like to bring future spouses and aged relatives in from overseas, do you think that should be taken seriously?

Even if a majority of the population do "want" something, that doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.

(See also: Brexit)

Unfortunately polls suggest 60% are in favour of actually banning the burka so even more extreme than Boris stance.

This whole situation fascinates and scares me at the same time. Here we have Boris saying that he disagrees with a ban on face veils. But, he cleverly includes some demeaning language to make sure that the people he is targeting stay on his side. Using this tactic, he can even disagree with them and they will still see him as their leader.

(See also: Brexit)

yes, yes enough with tyranny of the mob.

downthestrada Yep. All the people on here suggesting that Boris's choice of words was clumsy or misguided is seriously underestimating him.

The most pervasive and sustained hate crime is being propagated by Labour, against Jews. It comes with an official party imprimatur.

That bigotry isn’t shouted down. At best it’s tolerated; more usually the left actively promotes it.

We are not talking about other religions, we are talking about Boris Johnsons comments, Also we are expected to show tolerance towards lslam, where is their tolerance towards UK values. The way we are viewed by Islam in a very negative way. It works both ways.

I repeat, the phrase,"we can tell a lot about how civilised a society is, by the way that they treat their vulnerable", by Thank I think

The UK has free speech problems on the level of Zimbabwe

I've lived in Zimbabwe and have close connections there whose family members were taken in the night by armed men, never to be seen again. Some of the family are living in exile in different countries, some separated from their children. Some have been awarded political asylum in the UK even under our strict asylum laws.

Over the years, I've seen various tits in the UK love to co-opt the sufferings of Zimbabweans for their hyperbole. Frankly in the UK we can be grateful that it is hyperbole.

I'd never recommend complacency about freedom of speech in any country, but trying to pretend the UK is like Zim... Eugh.

By Ghandi I meant

Of course Johnson must be thrown out. It is unacceptable to allow him to remain in a position of authority - although he should have been removed after previous racist comments. In fact, the vetting procedure has to be vastly improved so as to give the best chance of not letting people like him near power.

What I've noticed in general discussion (including here), however, is that it doesn't matter what's been said, the only thing is was it 'our side' or 'their side' who said it. People who defended Corbyn's racism are merrily slinging mud at Johnson and those who attacked Corbyn are falling over themselves to justify/retcon/reinterpret Johnson's racism. Would it really hurt to admit both are despicable? Politics needs clearing out, but so does political discourse as it only serves to egg them on.

I've lived in Zimbabwe and have close connections there whose family members were taken in the night by armed men, never to be seen again. Some of the family are living in exile in different countries, some separated from their children.

Similar for me! I can’t believe people are trying to say freedom of speech here in th U.K. is the same as Zimbabwe. Most of my family left.

Even if a majority of the population do "want" something, that doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.

I'm not suggesting it does, see also the death penalty etc.

But Ghost picked up on a previous poster saying he was saying what a lot was thinking. The initial polls suggest this could be true, it is not just a right wing issue either considering the comments made by Khan and Thornbury in the past and why bans have been implemented across europe.

I am not sticking up for Boris's comments and have said so in this thread, however the political point scoring is coming from one direction.

@TheGhostofFrankGrimes

But the law can be interpreted in different ways. And the law gets it wrong. That’s why (in my opinon) hate speech laws are wrong. Are you really saying that you’re happy for our freedom of expression to be decided by politicians and lawyers? Are you really happy for people to be fired simply for saying something? This seems awfully conformist and bizarrely trusting of those in power.

however the political point scoring is coming from one direction.

is not just coming from one direction.

People who defended Corbyn's racism are merrily slinging mud at Johnson and those who attacked Corbyn are falling over themselves to justify/retcon/reinterpret Johnson's racism

I’m not defending Johnson. Wish he’d go.

What I will do forever, though, is point out that the left lecturing others about racism or hatred is fundamentally dishonest.

The UK has free speech problems on the level of Zimbabwe or late USSR eastern Europe.

Omg. What are you talking about?

Would you get rid of hate speech laws completely? I personally would feel scared about that.

That’s why (in my opinon) hate speech laws are wrong. Are you really saying that you’re happy for our freedom of expression to be decided by politicians and lawyers? Are you really happy for people to be fired simply for saying something? This seems awfully conformist and bizarrely trusting of those in power.

It’s like when you sign an employment contract, you are often signing up to the values of that company. It’s up to the Conservatives to decide if Boris’ language fits them. Or, they could explicitly say that they accept politicians that make these sorts of statements. At least that way you would know exactly what you were voting for.

I would prefer if both the Conservatives and Labour were clear on what they are ‘about’ and what’s acceptable to them, but I’m guessing that will never happen.

hilbo

Campaigners have spend generations fighting for equality for marginalised groups - whether women, black people, LGBT groups. Their successes are now enshrined in various laws.

I am not about to see this ripped up so that some twat can be racist/homophobic/misogynist. I'm not going to apologise for "the liberals" stealing the bigots "fun".

I do want to live in a society were sexist comments are "banter" or islamophobia "just saying what everyone thinks".

People feel that the Conservative party have no right to expect Boris to conform to their values.

They also seem to feel that no one on Mumsnet has a right to call Boris a twat.

These are the same people who are very distressed about the death of Free Speech.

Ummm.

Back to freedom of the press in the US. This is what has been happening despite the First Amendment:

freedom.press/news/34-arrests-44-physical-attacks-and-more-chilling-numbers-us-press-freedom-trackers-first-year/

Journalists are being attacked while attempting to report. Arrested "for rioting" for covering protests. Physically assaulted by politicians. For asking questions the politicians didn't want to answer.

Blithely saying, "Oh the First Amendment solves everything..." isn't enough. Particularly under an administration which is happy to break the law.

FWIW, I’m not remotely distressed by the loss of free speech in this area. We will live in a much better society when hate speech is driven out.

I am distressed about selectivity though. Labour’s concern doesn’t extend to all races and religions, just those they favour. That really is loathsome.

The idea of getting rid of hate speech laws is scary.

It’s interesting that it has come up in this discussion because I think it would make the situation for niqab/burka wearers worse. I don’t think that a situation where someone might lose a job for not following their party or employer’s values, should be an instigator for changing or removing hate speech laws.

Alltheprettyseahorses, yy to your second paragraph!

He would have done much better to stay on as Mayor of London, a job he was good at. Don't think he's suited for parliament at all

Freedom of speech works both ways, there is also the freedom to criticise how someone else uses theirs.