To think Boris Johnson should be be thrown out of Tory party?

[crunchymint]

He is clearly racist. He should be thrown out of the Conservative party.

DarlingNikita I would have problems teaching someone who was wearing a niqab in the classroom Might I ask why? Genuine question.

Sorry for not answering earlier; no sleep due to the horrendous thunderstorm around Brussels last night, so went for a toes up.

When teaching you rely a lot on non verbal cues to see how someone grasps what you are trying to teach. Those might be large gestures like resting your head in your hands, wriggling on your chair etc, but you pick up a lot from facial expressions; wrinkled noses, twisting your mouth, frowning etc, and these help you to identify which students/pupils might need more help. If someone is wearing a niqab, you miss all that information.

A hijab or a chador allows head covering, but you still get the benefit of reading facial expressions. I bet you gauge more than you think from faces.

went for a toes up

And again, for those concerned about freedom of speech, what's happening in the US under Trump is relevant.

Republicans: Give Trump the Power to Shut Down Media
amp.thedailybeast.com/new-poll-43-of-republicans-want-to-give-trump-the-power-to-shut-down-media?__twitter_impression=true

[The poll findings] also illustrate the extent to which Trump’s anti-press drumbeat has shaped public opinion about the role the media plays in covering his administration.

All told, 43 percent of self-identified Republicans said that they believed “the president should have the authority to close news outlets engaged in bad behavior.” Only 36 percent disagreed with that statement. When asked if Trump should close down specific outlets, including CNN, The Washington Post, and The New York Times, nearly a quarter of Republicans (23 percent) agreed and 49 percent disagreed.

Republicans were far more likely to take a negative view of the media. Forty-eight percent of them said they believed “the news media is the enemy of the American people” (just 28 percent disagreed) while nearly four out of every five (79 percent) said that they believed “the mainstream media treats President Trump unfairly.”

But swaths of self-identified Democrats and Independents supported anti-press positions as well. According to the survey, 12 percent of Democrats and 21 percent of Independents agreed that “the president should have the authority to close news outlets engaged in bad behavior” (74 percent and 55 percent, respectively, disagreed). Additionally, 12 percent of Democrats and 26 percent of Independents agreed that “the news media is the enemy of the American people” (74 percent and 50 percent, respectively, disagreed)

The concept of an enemy press corps has become a staple of Trump’s tweets and public utterances in recent months.
[...]
Members of the press, as well as top officials at some of the nation’s leading publications, have objected to the phrase, arguing that it is both wildly inaccurate and deeply dangerous. They have pointed to mob-like treatment of the media by Trump supporters at various rallies as evidence for their fears. Offered the opportunity, Trump’s spokesperson, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, declined to denounce the phrase.

This is what the Trump/Bannon playbook looks like, and why it matters if Johnson starts following it.

And again, for those concerned about freedom of speech, what's happening in the US under Trump is relevant.

Not really. The Americans have the First Amendment which guarantees their rights in this regard. People are not being arrested in their thousands for expressing any opinion, if they were they would have fast recourse to reverse that for infringing their right to do so under the Constitution, and Donald Trump has precisely zero chance of ending the Free Press in the USA, the Second Amendment would be easy by comparison.

The UK has free speech problems on the level of Zimbabwe or late USSR eastern Europe, the US Constitution is fundamentally incompatible with that kind of problem.

Boris is a total dick.
That said, Trump thinks he’d make a fine PM, so that’s me comforted 😬

ImAldoot.

It's a worry to me. Also now mentioning free speech seems to get rapidly interpreted as a right wing dog whistle.

So much language feels circumscribed.

Vicky1990

Boris said what most of us are thinking.

You don't know what 65 million people are thinking.

NK

The majority of posters who are offended by his comments do not seem to be burkha wearers or even muslims.

So we aren't allowed to call out bigotry unless we are part of the group on the receiving end? So a white person isn't allowed to call out racism against black people? What a regressive place we'd live in if that were the case.

It's a worry to me. Also now mentioning free speech seems to get rapidly interpreted as a right wing dog whistle.

I think the starting point is distinguishing between hate speech and freedom of speech. Freedom of speech comes with responsibilities eg. the responsibility not to a bigot/racist/homophobic etc. If you espouse these views, especially when in public office expect consequences.

The whole debate here is selective outrage. Appalled by the "oppression" of Muslim women turn a blind eye to the sale of arms to regimes like Saudi. Its political point scoring or in this instance an poor attempt to defend the indefensible (Boris' comments and previous track record).

You don't know what 65 million people are thinking.

Unfortunately polls suggest 60% are in favour of actually banning the burka so even more extreme than Boris stance.

The whole debate here is selective outrage.

Like you was with the Anti-Semitism

Appalled by the "oppression" of Muslim women turn a blind eye to the sale of arms to regimes like Saudi

The selling of arms to Saudi is a geopolitical quagmire, certainly not the zero sum game you have suggested

No I dont isn’t anybody allowed a personal opinion anymore ? ESP when you read what other Mp,s have said in the past and a recent pole 60% of people wanted the burka banned,
On a side note what person now sets the moral and racist guidelines,
It just seems away to bash people nowadays and I’m not sure people now know what is racist or not

Boris is a giant numpty.
He could have chosen his words better, i don’t agree with the full face veil at all, but I would never dream of saying the things he says.

GhostofFrankGrimes Freedom of speech comes with responsibilities eg. the responsibility not to be a bigot/racist/homophobic etc.

And who decides whom is a bigot?

Some people may (and do) agree with Boris’ observations about the way the burka looks. They may find your viewpoint that his comments are “indefensible” extremely bigoted.

Should you “expect consequences”?

Unfortunately polls suggest 60% are in favour of actually banning the burka so even more extreme than Boris stance.

When as we know polls can be wrong, however anti Muslim sentiment in this country won't help feeding peoples prejudices will it? How was Johnson's "letterbox" comment helpful to meaningful debate.

Like you was with the Anti-Semitism

Nope, I oppose all forms of discrimination. Evidence is key of course. Johnson's comments are there in black and white.

The selling of arms to Saudi is a geopolitical quagmire, certainly not the zero sum game you have suggested

My goodness, you've drowned in word soup there. Its really simple. Oppose oppressive regimes. Don't sell arms to countries with appalling human rights records. The Tories won't do this though. They'll pander to the far right with faux outrage about clothing and turn a blind eye when the bombs drop.

I’m just not seeing freedom of speech being eroded in this country. Especially since Brexit, I’m seeing everyone’s saying exactly what they think. I just think people are getting upset at others using their right to freedom of speech to disagree with them.

Just because people don’t like what Boris has said, doesn’t mean that there’s a problem with freedom of speech. People might think that what he said wasn’t suitable for a politician but it’s up to his party to decide if they want to keep him and up to voters to decide if they still want to vote Tory. It’s about the values that the Conservatives have and who they want to represent them.

And who decides whom is a bigot?

Various laws. If I'd have made those comments in my workplace I'd have been pulled up on it and likely disciplined.

If I'd made comments about "picannanies" I'd get sacked. And rightly so.

daughterofanarchy why wouldn’t you ?

When as we know polls can be wrong, however anti Muslim sentiment in this country won't help feeding peoples prejudices will it? How was Johnson's "letterbox" comment helpful to meaningful debate.

Exactly. When, people are talking about how they encourage segregation, how do demeaning comments help? It’s certainly not going to help integration. If Boris is encouraging this and potentially encouraging attacks, how is that helping the women?

It can’t be both ways, saying that he’s worried about their oppression but then saying something to demean them that could cause further problems. It’s not the right way to go about this.

But, as I said before Boris doesn’t care about this debate the article was carefully calculated for his career.

His article would have been a great way of explaining his thoughts on this, but without those comments.

Why did he need to include them? What purpose did they serve? It is possible to agree with the article but to say that insulting the women that wear these doesn’t help.

downthestrada Because we never have a meaningful debate, people with different views always get shouted down, I can’t see where BJ encouraged attacks

When as we know polls can be wrong

You can't just just wave away polls that don't agree with your point, they can be wrong but going on these polls then the poster you picked up on, he is saying what 60% of the population want.

My goodness, you've drowned in word soup there. Its really simple. Oppose oppressive regimes. Don't sell arms to countries with appalling human rights records. The Tories won't do this though. They'll pander to the far right with faux outrage about clothing and turn a blind eye when the bombs drop.

I know you like to paint things in black and white and it shows how you think its word soup. The fact that it is a geopolitical mess is why Sweden also sells arms to Saudi, it can't be neatly put into your box of "Tories and far right"

Rosstac do you think describing as looking like "bank robbers or letterboxes" is a meaningful debate?

LoveInTokyo I wasn’t referring to that comment, more in general esp on here

But are people getting shouted down? It’s just people debating with different viewpoints. Sometimes there will be more people on your side and sometimes not. I’ve debated at times with hardly anyone seeing my point of view. I don’t feel like I’m shouted down - just that everybody is debating and using their right to free speech.

I said “potentially” re. Attacks. I’m expecting that there may be more people focused on women wearing niqabs and that they are more at risk. I guess all we can do is wait and see.

people with different views always get shouted down

No bigots get shouted down. Muslims are "othered" in this country - particularly in recent years. Yes, lets have a meaningful debate about "outdated" religious beliefs. Lets include the christian view on abortion and same sex relationships.

I can’t see where BJ encouraged attacks

Islamophobia is on the increase. Hate crime is on the increase. A man was recently imprisoned for driving a van into a mosque. Bigotry feeds hate. Dog whistles feed this.