To think Boris Johnson should be be thrown out of Tory party?

[crunchymint]

He is clearly racist. He should be thrown out of the Conservative party.

I'm white and British and on a beach holiday recently (in Europe, heavily white crowd) I thought more than once that I could have done with a burkini for convenience and sun protection. Anyone who thinks I look like a seal, that's their problem

That's your white privilege talking.

Boris is a twat and might well be racist but saying women who dress like this look ridiculous is not, in itself, racist

That's your white privilege talking.

THIS.

You can choose to put on a burkini for "convenience and sun protection", but a Muslim woman cannot, in reality, choose to put on a bikini and enjoy the feel of the sun on her skin or go swimming without all that extra fabric weighing her down.

You are blinded by your Corbyn worship.

Anyone who utters the merest of pro Corbyn comments is derided as a "worshipper" or cultist or Corbynista. Jeremy Corbyn is not the "left" or socialism. Its a great way to pigeon hole an entire set of beliefs.

I see you missed out the one ‘outstanding’labour leader who won 3 elections but I guess you see Blaire as a red Tory don’t you.

Wrong again, I voted Labour in '97 and '01.

If he had said that nuns look ridiculous in their habits would anyone care?

Lets not forget the Tories supply and confidence agreement with the DUP. Probably better that the government gets its own house in order before its MP's start on other cultures.

www.indy100.com/article/dup-theresa-may-tory-deal-alliance-minority-government-quotes-arlene-foster-lgbt-abortion-religion-7783241

Remarkable that this doesn't get more press.

You can choose to put on a burkini for "convenience and sun protection", but a Muslim woman cannot, in reality, choose to put on a bikini and enjoy the feel of the sun on her skin or go swimming without all that extra fabric weighing her down.

Yes, "people from other cultures, especially women lack agency and need enlightened westerners to save them from themselves". That's one of the oldest tricks in the chauvinist book.

Interesting article by Alison Pearson in today’s Telegraph. I can’t link so I will try to photograph the relevant section.

If he had said that nuns look ridiculous in their habits would anyone care?

If political anti-clericalism was a significant force maybe.

No they do look ridiculous and have no place in the 21st century.

Still personal opinion, still irrelevant.

As for my 'white privilege', that's a straw man really. mirialiss post was not about the choice or lack of choice that a Muslim woman has. It was about her own opinion that women in burka/niqab look 'ridiculous'.

Yes, "people from other cultures, especially women lack agency and need enlightened westerners to save them from themselves". That's one of the oldest tricks in the chauvinist book.

Do you honestly think that a woman from a very conservative Muslim background where every other woman she knows covers up really has the freedom to wear a bikini on the beach of she wants to?

If a student wants to wear a niqab or a burka, when they come to sit their exams, how does the exam centre verify that it is actually them?

I don't know about this situation but I worked in a public building for a while and some other staff members wore niqabs. They had to show their face to the security guards before entering. The rest of us would be on CCTV whilst we swiped in. I think lots of these situations have solutions.

I don't love niqabs or burkas, but I'm not keen on going down a route of telling women what they can and can't wear. Happy to have a discussion about it, but not in the style of Boris Johnson.

Do you honestly think that a woman from a very conservative Muslim background where every other woman she knows covers up really has the freedom to wear a bikini on the beach of she wants to

No, she probably doesn't. But why on earth is that a reason to tell a woman who does want to wear a burka that she can't? Why is it less oppressive to forbid a garment than to insist on it?

Do you honestly think that a woman from a very conservative Muslim background where every other woman she knows covers up really has the freedom to wear a bikini on the beach of she wants to?

If she wants to - talking in the UK here, she can - and many have - left their backgrounds and started new lives for themselves among people with different values. Is that hard, yes of course - anyone making that kind of massive change has a lot of barriers and hardships to overcome - they may have to build a whole new life, lose all their friends and family and start from zero. But it can be done. Where things are problematic - honour killings, killing apostates - obviously those things are and should be crimes and harshly punished, a free society does not allow people to threaten each other into submission like that even when they want to.

When it's things like "social pressure" though? People can and do resist social pressure every day. It doesn't restrict your freedom, just makes exercising it more uncomfortable. It certainly doesn't take away your agency otherwise no-one has agency.

No, she probably doesn't. But why on earth is that a reason to tell a woman who does want to wear a burka that she can't? Why is it less oppressive to forbid a garment than to insist on it?

I am not in favour of banning them. But I do think that the whole concept is oppressive and misogynistic and I agree with a PP that a white woman suggesting she would choose to wear one for practical reasons smacks of white privilege.

If she wants to - talking in the UK here, she can - and many have - left their backgrounds and started new lives for themselves among people with different values. Is that hard, yes of course - anyone making that kind of massive change has a lot of barriers and hardships to overcome - they may have to build a whole new life, lose all their friends and family and start from zero. But it can be done. Where things are problematic - honour killings, killing apostates - obviously those things are and should be crimes and harshly punished, a free society does not allow people to threaten each other into submission like that even when they want to.

Sure. But the very fact that in some cases it would be necessary to break away from all your entire family and community in order to be able to wear what you want is a fairly obvious barrier to doing it, even if you would like to.

There is no room for racists in the Tory Party.
It's already full.

Sure. But the very fact that in some cases it would be necessary to break away from all your entire family and community in order to be able to wear what you want is a fairly obvious barrier to doing it, even if you would like to.

Which make it ok to mock or force removal because?

There is no room for racists in the Tory Party.
It's already full.

Neither party main can take the moral high ground on this.

As for my 'white privilege', that's a straw man really

eh? I said it's not racist to say that women who dress like this in the 21st century west, struggling to eat in a restaurant or swim to the best of their ability, look ridiculous and quoted someone who actually has to do this about looking ridiculous.

You said that was "irrelevant" as it was personal opinion - when it was entirely Johnson's point - and then piped up with how you as a white woman sometimes think you'd like the convenience of a burkini (not that you've actually worn one) and are now popping up with "straw man".

Is it racist to say that women who dress like this in 21st century western countries look ridiculous...? No. What is irrelevant is that you - who has never chosen or been obliged to dress like this - letting us know that you sometimes think you would like the convenience of it

What I find incredibly weird is the Burka was originally worn by men and women to avoid sand getting into their eyes in deserts.
The Niqab was originally worn by women who either the Prophets wives or women Who didn’t want to recognised.

What annoys me is the assumption that women are forced. I know women who choose to wear it. The moment you dictate to women what they can’t wear we are no better than the sections of any community forcing women to wear particular clothes.

Boris is our Donald Trump both of which act like fools but are very clever men.

Which make it ok to mock or force removal because?

Where have I mocked them or supported forced removal?

Where have I mocked them or supported forced removal?

Don't know if you have personally but the thread is about Boris mocking them and someone was saying women/girls should have to in order to do an exam.

Don't know if you have personally but the thread is about Boris mocking them and someone was saying women/girls should have to in order to do an exam.

I mentioned the exam thing, but it's a more general point about what you do in situations where you need to be able to prove someone's identity. Which is a reasonable point, no?

Only thing BoJo has ever said that I agree with. Face coverings have no place within western cultures and lands. If a new Islamic fashion (and it is fashion) required women to wear dog collars and be on leads, would we accept that in the name of cultural sensitivity? Where’s the line? For some of us, it’s face coverings.

Well, I am old enough to remember the decimation of the 80's. That in around about way has brought us to the point we are at in 2018. Well done on deflecting from Johnson anyway.

Are you old enough to remember the decimation of the 70s which was worse? A bankrupt country, officials sent to beg international bodies for enough money to feed ourselves, and more pits closed by Labour than by the subsequent Tory government?

No, the political establishment has been fucking us all for a good 40 or 50 years, anyone who has faith in one of them being in it for the people after generations of this is... well I don't want to be rude but very much mistaken in their beliefs.

Op have you read the article? Or just decided to jump on the ‘I’m outraged’ band wagon with everyone else?
He’s saying he doesn’t want to ban the burka. Which in itself wouldn’t be a radical stance given the complete, or partial ban in France, Spain, Germany, Denmark, Austria (I could go on...).
So no, he shouldn’t lose his job. He has an opinion and he’s entitled to it.
Free speech is dying in this country and it’s bloody sad.