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AIBU?

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Original poster

To think schools shouldn't teach religion as absolute fact?

593 replies

PoesyCherish · 06/08/2018 13:35

DSD is 6 and is learning about Christianity in school. They're teaching her Jesus is the Son of God rather than "some people believe he is". Everything about the religion is taught as fact. They've also failed to mention anything about any other religion.

AIBU to think they shouldn't be teaching it as absolute fact? How are children supposed to be understanding and tolerant of other people's beliefs if they're taught one world view as fact?

OP posts:
MeyMary · 10/08/2018 22:22

why are there any atheists

That's a really good question. (Imo)

The answer obviously depends on who ask.

Imo? because humans have the ability to make choices.

I must say, I feel like I understand being agnostic / actually am on some ways agnostic myself.

But I just don't understand why anyone would believe to know with absolute certainty that God doesn't exist...

CantankerousCamel · 10/08/2018 22:37

I don’t know any home schooled kids who question their parents ethos.

Its very clearly indoctrination.

BananaToffo · 10/08/2018 22:48

*But I just don't understand why anyone would believe to know with absolute certainty that God doesn't exist
*
Your phrasing is a bit confusing but I know what you mean and it comes up on these threads time after time after time, so I'll address it.

There aren't many atheists around who'll say they know that no god exists. In my case, I am so certain of it that it feels like knowledge, but I freely admit that it isn't.

If anyone presents me with convincing, verifiable, repeatable evidence that any god exists I shall become a believer. It won't be a "choice"....I just will because I follow evidence wherever it leads me.

If you are asking why we are so convinced there isn't a god then the simple answer is because theists have not given us a single convincing reason to believe that there is.

The ball is in the theists court here, not ours. You bear the burden of proof as the claim that a god exists is yours, not ours. Our atheism exists only as a counter to your theism...without theism, there would be no atheism.

We do not live in a world where a god is self-evident & so belief should be the default. It's quite the opposite, in fact. And so anyone seeking to claim that there is some supernatural prime mover needs to demonstrate a sensible reason to give the idea credence. But no one ever has.

All we are asking for is evidence.

But, to demonstrate a bit more, imagine I told you that I had a tiger living in my garage. Would you automatically believe me? No...you'd ask me to show you. What if I refused to show you, or provide videos/photographs and told you to just believe me? You wouldn't. I doubt you'd tell me that it was impossible that I had a tiger in my garage, but you wouldn't actively believe it without evidence.

And, given that it would be most unusual for anyone to have a tiger living in their garage you'd be highly sceptical to say the least.

It's that simple.

*imo? Because humans have the ability to make choices
*
I didn't choose to be an atheist. And you saying this suggests that you think theism should be the default position. Why do you think that?

CantankerousCamel · 10/08/2018 22:49

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

CantankerousCamel · 10/08/2018 22:50

It amazes me that people believe if there is a god, certainly one of the Christian persuasion, that anyone would want to Praise the fucker.

BananaToffo · 10/08/2018 22:53

*This is the rationalism vs empiricism debate
*
Not really. Until it's demonstrated that a god exists as a matter of fact, and isn't just a belief that human beings hold then it doesn't fit into that debate at all.

That's a discussion about how we acquire knowledge. You can't know something exists if it doesn't.

CantankerousCamel · 10/08/2018 23:03

I just told my husband that people on line are arguing that kids are born without faith and are indoctrinated into atheism and he is wetting himself.

They’re so utterly ludicrous they have to pinch our arguments Grin

nokidshere · 10/08/2018 23:12

My children's teacher could have told them that some people believed the sun was purple and they would recite it as an absolute fact.... if Miss P said it then it was absolutely true! Youngest said that Miss P told him that dead people live on clouds and do the cleaning for god - who knows what they were learning that day.

They didn't go on believing those things. They are intelligent, inquisitive boys who have made up their own minds about "true" things that people tell them. Including me.

Chill, all will be well

Jason118 · 10/08/2018 23:33

What about the less intelligent, less inquisitive, how is it ever right to say such things to them?

nokidshere · 10/08/2018 23:54

What about the less intelligent, less inquisitive, how is it ever right to say such things to them?

IME the majority of children make up their own minds sooner or later about lots of things adults tell them regardless of their level of intelligence. Some will fathom it out sooner than others that's all.

I don't believe religion is necessary in schools, but neither do I believe that many, if any, teach it as absolute fact. Nor do I believe that children retelll stuff they hear in school with clarity to their patents.

sweetsomethings · 10/08/2018 23:58

Religion should be taught at home not in schools . All school should be religion free . If people want there kids to go to a school with a particular religion it should be funded by the parents like a private school. It annoys me that my kids have to go miles to a primary school when the local one is catholic and they ain’t welcome there

BananaToffo · 11/08/2018 00:09

*IME the majority of children make up their own minds sooner or later about lots of things adults tell them regardless of their level of intelligence
*
Given that 90%+ of people on this planet are religious and the vast majority have the same religion as their parents, we know that's not true.

We have evolved to believe the things that influential adults tell us. Our survival depends on it.

Atheism is the fastest growing group in the US and that's not because they've made up their own minds in a vacuum but because they have more access to information than at any time in human history.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 11/08/2018 02:35

because they have more access to information than at any time in human history

And that is why religion needs to get into schools, to stop them learning the truth, to stop them accessing the information, to push their ideology every day and try and make it stick.

If they dont they will fade into the history books and be part of the myths and mythology section.

Reteacher101 · 11/08/2018 13:01

There’s no religion in American schools is there? How is that working for tolerance of others and understanding of different faiths?
So often in these conversations people talk of religious ed and faith schools as if one and the same.

CantankerousCamel · 11/08/2018 13:07

Reteach
The issues in America go far beyond education

Reteacher101 · 11/08/2018 13:11

But education is the obvious starting point for change

BananaToffo · 11/08/2018 14:55

*There's no religion in American schools is there? How is that working for tolerance of others and understanding of different faiths?
*
Schools in America are allowed to teach about religion from an academic standpoint. Teachers are not allowed to be biased towards their own religion or teach that one is superior to another.

Unfortunately it does not work well because of the extraodrinary entitlement of Christians trying to force their beliefs into public arenas even though the constitution forbids it.

Atheists and non-religious groups are forever having to approach the courts in order to uphold the constitution - and whether they win or not largely depends on what state they are in.

The intolerant are not the atheists, but the theists. And we see the same here.

Speaking for myself, and probably for most other atheists on this thread, I am perfectly happy for children to be taught about religion in school. What I object to is impressionable minds being coached into believing that one religion is more valid than another on the basis of no evidence at all.

But this is a situation that won't go away while we have children attending schools named after saints, run by a particular faith with images from that religion on the walls, episodes speaking to the deity of choice with their hands clasped and termly (at least) services in the local church (or mosque/synagogue etc). Because when you have all that teachers saying, "But all religions are equal" is nothing more than lip service. A classic case of some religions being more equal than others.

Putting religion into schools does not teach about tolerance. It teaches the opposite. And it is extraordinary that anyone truly believes that dividing children up on the basis of who their parents worship is good for society & "tolerance". It's not.

CantankerousCamel · 11/08/2018 15:15

I would say sorting out the gun laws and moving America out of the dark ages of women/family/child rights is a bigger priority to be honest.

BananaToffo · 11/08/2018 15:22

Nothing America does is my priority. I'm the UK and it was our schooling I was addressing.

CantankerousCamel · 11/08/2018 15:39

Quite right Banana

Detailing is definitely a mark of a crap argument

CantankerousCamel · 11/08/2018 15:43

*Derailing

BananaToffo · 11/08/2018 15:54

I didn't think you were derailing, I just thought maybe it seemed like I was talking about changes to US schooling rather than ours, which I wasn't.

CantankerousCamel · 11/08/2018 15:57

I think Reteach was derailing as they were talking about religion in American schools, which is absurd when you consider the massive scope of issues in America and the socio economical differences there. You can’t simple look at Americans many problems and say ‘oh it’s because there is no religion in schools’ it’s an absurd position

Reteacher101 · 11/08/2018 15:59

Look I open a thread and see a comment about how religion should be taught at home not at school. This is my bread and butter so I have an opinion on it. I don’t think there should be any faith schools. I do strongly think children should learn about morality, religion and also stances such as atheism and humanism. It was my understanding that there was no subject for teaching about religion in America, I can accept if that was wrong. What happens there is relevant if addressing a post saying it would be better to have religion taught at home not at school, if they are an example of a country where that happens. Do you think a fundamentalist-anything family is going to teach their child about other religious viewpoints? Of course they won’t. I think education is the way out of intolerance and bigotry.

CantankerousCamel · 11/08/2018 16:26

Please explain how ‘morality’ and ‘religion’ are mutually conclusive in your eyes?