To be unsurprised that Corbyn is still being called anti-semitic?

[crunchymint]

Corbyn has been quite happy over the years to work with those who are clearly anti-Semitic. And he continues to do so. Whilst at the same time saying that he condemns all forms of racism, recently changed to say he condemns anti semitism. Does he not realise yet that people judge him by his actions, not his broad statements which are pretty meaningless? And until he clearly shows in his actions that he condemns anti semitism, these allegations will continue?

If the politicians who say these things aren't dealt with effectively, then that's a big issue and it needs to be addressed and idiots who actually believe them should be sacked. I have no disagreement with that.

Agreed. Except that Corbyn and the NEC haven't exactly shown commitment to dealing with these politicians effectively.

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/sadly-we-still-cannot-trust-jeremy-corbyn-over-antisemitism-a3823241.html

"Corbyn wrote in yesterday’s Evening Standard that “anti-Semitism is a poison that must be challenged wherever it raises its head”.

"We asked that Labour put in a fixed timetable to deal with anti-Semitism cases; Corbyn and his team said that would not be possible.

We asked that they should expedite the long-standing cases involving serial offenders Ken Livingstone and Jackie Walker; Corbyn made only vague commitments.

We asked that no MP should share a platform with somebody expelled or suspended for anti-Semitism; Corbyn said he could not give us that guarantee.

We asked that there be transparent oversight of Labour’s disciplinary process. Corbyn was not forthcoming."

It appears that Labour are releasing Corbyn video about anti semitism in lieu of the scrapped speech, this evening. What timing. Slow hand clap.

They are just trolling now.

Let's hope someone sees sense. Not holding my breath.

DeadHerring

Just really pisses me off when people who havnt recently been on the thread start their posts with is this still going on and them proceed to instruct us that we should all spread the love. It’s patronising and infuriating.

For many people they are sick to death of Corbyn
And his cronies failing to tackle and giving refuge to anti semitism. It’s gone on far far too long.

No one has said they support all the Israeli government is going that’s not the issue here. Clearly they have made mistakes.

Again that’s not the issue here.

I hope you have taken on board bananafish excellent posts and examples?

Corbyn is lacking leadership and any will to tackle this. An yes I dare to say that I see him as disasterous for my party and he’s taken us back years in tolerance, acceptance and electability.

No one has said they support all the Israeli government is going that’s not the issue here. Clearly they have made mistakes

Mistakes? About 2,200 Palestinian children have been killed by Israeli forces since 2000. Are these the kind of 'mistakes' you talking about here Seasawride?

cruella

Yes hideous mistakes just like our mistakes in Iraq.

However none of that is what’s being discussed on this thread. Start one about the crimes of Israel by all means.

That still doesn’t excuse anti Semitic views and comments from labour officials excused by the labour leadership.

Those of you denying there is a problem might look at the Twitter feeds of Helen Lewis, Hadley Freeman, David Baddiel, Sarah Ditum, Jonathan Freedland, Jess Phillips, David Miliband, the satirical account Momentum Surbition also has some interesting links, even Owen Jones’s account. Don’t just read the tweets read the replies.

Also Helen Lewis’s latest articles on this www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/07/jeremy-corbyn-and-anti-semitism-there-anything-left-say
Some recent FT articles this, and the links to the Simon Schama article.
www.ft.com/content/d213a5e4-85c0-11e8-a29d-73e3d454535d

Hadley Freeman
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/27/jews-furious-corbyn-evasions-labour-antisemitism

Jonathan Freedland on Newsnight recently put forward an interesting analogy, he said imagine the police, post Stephen Lawrence and the charge of institutional racism, had been given guidelines from the leaders of the black community. Then imagine the police rejected these, instead a mostly white group of police officials, without consultation, drew up its own anti-racism guidelines. Imagine these officials then said to the black community here are the guidelines we're following, and when that community complained that these did not address their concerns those police officials responded how dare you complain, you should be grateful. This is in effect what Labour has done to the Jewish community. I don't care whether Jeremy Corbyn is actually an anti-Semite, I don't vote for a leader (I'm seeking a just government not a charismatic leader, if I were I would be supporting something akin to a future dictatorship) but as the leader of the party failing to tackle this issue makes him anti-Semitic by proxy.

No, it doesn't excuse anti semitic views.

Deadherring When you speak of the Holocaust survivor who talked about Nazis, you forget (or have decided to forget) that this was pre-planned event, hosted by Corbyn on International Holocaust Memorial Day and that the title of the session (known in advance) was ‘The Misuse of the Holocaust for political purposes’. The scheduling of the event and the name of the session alone are highly offensive. In addition Meyer’s views are well known and were so before this event, yet Corbyn agreed to share a platform and then rather disingenuously, when called out on this made a bland apology.

It is interesting also that you can provide a number of examples that are supposed to persuade us that there is no endemic anti-Semitism in the Labour party or in JC, but then when confronted with examples make vague gestures to wanting to find out more. It's clear where your priorities lie.

However, I'm not interested in defending idiotic politicians who say stupid, bigoted things. My main point is that the labour party shouldn't be vilified for not accepting the IHRA definitions verbatim - the definitions curtail free speech and support religious prejudice against an already oppressed people.

But these "idiotic politicians who say stupid, bigoted things" are precisely the point. Corbyn hasn't been swift to denounce them, or to take action.

'Is this still going on' feels like it's massively minimising endemic behaviour within a party and a refusal by the leader and NEC to acknowledge that it's an issue, let alone do anything about them.

This stuff isn't about Israeli politics. This stuff is out and out bigotry. It's really scary.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/11/serious-concerns-labours-shortlisting-councillor-accused-anti/

"Serious concerns have been raised over Labour's shortlisting of a councillor who has been accused of making anti-Semitic comments

The Party was plunged into a fresh anti-Semitism row after it emerged that Nasreen Khan claimed that Jews “have reaped the rewards of playing victims” and that there are “worse people than Hitler in this world”.

Writing under a video titled “The Palestine you need to know”, she said: “It’s such a shame that the history teachers in our school never taught us this but they are the first to start brainwashing us and our children into thinking the bad guy was Hitler. What have the Jews done good in this world?”

When she faced further online criticism she said: “Stop beating a dead horse. The Jews have reaped the rewards of playing victims. Enough is enough!”

A Labour Party spokesperson said: “We do not comment on internal selection matters"

Or this

http://www.itv.com/news/granada/2016-05-02/former-mayor-of-blackburn-zionist-jews-are-a-disgrace-to-humanity/

"The former mayor of Blackburn Salim Mulla - who currently sits as a Labour councillor in the town - has been suspended by the party over anti-Semitic comments made on Twitter and Facebook

Mulla posted a series of offensive comments and photographs suggesting Israel was behind the Sandy Hook massacre and ISIS.
He also said that 'Zionist Jews' were 'a disgrace to humanity'."

He posted these - and has since been reinstated

These aren't isolated events.

The problem of antisemitism within the Labour party and how it's been handled by its leadership is about so so much more than the IHRA wording.

Cruella
I personally would prefer the word tragedies but hideous mistakes is a good term for that as well...

Just like the CA 13'000 civilians killed in the intervention in Yemen (also supported by the UK, btw...).

Or the ca 7'500 civilians in the 2003 invasion of Iraq... (Britain was a participant...)

I believe that Israel and several Arab states have made mistakes.

The Palestinians are unfortunately usually the one that have to pay for them...

But this is not a reason to somehow condone or encourage anti-Semitism.

It should actually be the opposite.

People that want this conflict solved might want to think how the rise of Anti-Semitism impacts Jewish people and Israel in general...

(provided said people believe that there is a solution. But that's a different topic...)

However, I'm not interested in defending idiotic politicians who say stupid, bigoted things. My main point is that the labour party shouldn't be vilified for not accepting the IHRA definitions verbatim - the definitions curtail free speech and support religious prejudice against an already oppressed people

Fascinating how in this context curtailing so-called free speech so that Jews can be likened to Nazis is abhorrent, but forcing women to call say transwomen are actual women or that Lily Madigan is an appropriate representative for women is simply opposition to the 'violence of misgendering'.

So basically free speech in the Labour Party is the freedom to make offensive comments about the Jewish community combined with the right to silence women - as per the transcript of the grilling of Venice Allen, whether we agree with her stance or not. Great organisation you've got there, not difficult to see why so many Jewish people and women are less than happy with it.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/03/jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism-labour-party

I have always really liked Frank field.

I was reading today momentum a re trying to get him out.
That really will be the end of labour for me if they do this. He is a compassionate man who has actually grasped and understood one of the many issues the immigration from the eu has had on his poorer constituents in Birkenhead.

Ie a Labour politician who is actually trying to help his poor constituents.

Who has knowledge, empathy and understanding. I belive on a thread long ago he was called a racist by one of the prolific poster's on brexit threads.

It will be a huge loss to Labour.

Although not really a cause for alarm I suppose given that the party is riven with factionalism and misogyny presumably the moderates, former AWL groups, former Eurocommunists, Communitarians, Luxury Communists, Trotskyites, transgender lobby, women's lobby, old-school Marxists, and social democrats will eventually lead to it imploding. I sometimes wonder if Jeremy Corbyn is not just paralysed with fear, having built up a party full of factions some of which oppose him but with a diverse group who adore him and are projecting their political fantasies onto him. There is no way he can deliver to each of the 'adoring' groups; they are essentially ideologically opposed to each other's positions. At some point it has to fall apart.

As Robert Harris recently said we have the worst government in years combined with the worst opposition in years. God help us.

Just read The Guardians exclusive from Corbyn

No need to worry he is going to root the antisemities out of the labour party

I guess he will ignore his friends on that list. When Ken made his now famous remarks on Vanessa Feltz show Corbyn need to hear Ken’s opinion before he made a comment and still did fuck all

I don’t think this is going away

Couldn't leave this unchallenged. 'Deadherring says:
*Firstly, the term "semite" doesn't just mean a Jewish person. Palestinians and people of Arab descent are also semitic.

It's not anti-semitic to stand up for semitic people who are being oppressed by an ultra right wing government composed of other semitic people*

Deadherring clearly does not have access to a dictionary, encyclopaedia or other reference work, or would know that the statement above is factually and historically incorrect. Also is there not something slightly odd about someone believing that they can not only challenge claims of anti-Semitism but lecture to Jewish people and those who are anti-Semitism that they don't know what the term refers to. Seems a combination of hubris, arrogance, and condescension. Below are a range of sources, ranging from popular to more authoritative which make plain the origins and proper usage of the term anti-Semitism, or are the Labour party seeking to redefine that too. A sort of let's ignore history on top of current prejudice approach?

The root word Semite gives the false impression that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic people, e.g., including Arabs and Assyrians. The compound word antisemite was popularized in Germany in 1879[7] as a scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"),[8][9][10][11][12] and has been its common use since then.[13][14
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

Hostility to or prejudice against Jews.
en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/anti-semitism -

Anti-Semitism, hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious or racial group. The term anti-Semitism was coined in 1879 by the German agitator Wilhelm Marr to designate the anti-Jewish campaigns under way in central Europe at that time. Although the term now has wide currency, it is a misnomer, since it implies a discrimination against all Semites. Arabs and other peoples are also Semites, and yet they are not the targets of anti-Semitism as it is usually understood.
www.britannica.com/topic/anti-Semitism

"The word “antisemitism” was popularised by the German journalist Wilhelm Marr. His polemic, Der Sieg des Judentums über das Germentum (The Victory of Jewry over Germandom), was published in 1879. Outwardly, Marr was a thoroughly secular man of the modern world. He explicitly rejected the groundless but ancient Christian allegations long made against the Jews, such as deicide or that Jews engaged in the ritual murder of Christian children. Instead, he drew on the fashionable theories of the French academic Ernest Renan (who viewed history as a world-shaping contest between Jewish Semites and Aryan Indo-Europeans). Marr suggested that the Jewish threat to Germany was racial. He said that it was born of their immutable and destructive nature, their “tribal peculiarities” and “alien essence”.*
theconversation.com/antisemitism-how-the-origins-of-historys-oldest-hatred-still-hold-sway-today-87878
www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/antisemitism-jew-jewish-racism-hatred-religion-origins-history-europe-a8246311.html

Just in case it's not clear to Deadherring anti-Semitism is correctly used to refer to prejudice towards Jews, it is NOT a term that refers to Semitic groups in general.

DEADHERRING YOUR STATEMENT BELOW IS FACTUALLY INCORRECT, HTH
Firstly, the term "semite" doesn't just mean a Jewish person. Palestinians and people of Arab descent are also semitic.

It's not anti-semitic to stand up for semitic people who are being oppressed by an ultra right wing government composed of other semitic people

So not only do JC supporters refuse to see anti-Semitism but they don't even know what the term 'anti-Semitism' refers to.

@EnthusiasmIsDisturbed not just that, a big chunk is a cut and paste job from what he wrote a few months ago.

It was very typical of Corbyn’s mumblings

I can imagine him sitting there with a pained look on his face while writing it then being congratulated by one of his workers for how brave and honest he is

Same old same old

MrsAidenTurner

So so agree with you on Frank Field. A really good man. And I mean kind and compassionate and wise.

A real old school conviction politician.

Where does the country go from here indeed.

Awful government and dreadful opposition.

ladies it’s my answer to this Friday night.

If the politicians who say these things aren't dealt with effectively, then that's a big issue and it needs to be addressed and idiots who actually believe them should be sacked. I have no disagreement with that.

I'm actually really quite confused as to what you and others think the Jewish community are up in arms about. The observation that 'if these people aren't being dealt with effectively then that's a big issue and need to be addressed' is quite baffling. That's the whole bloody point! You seemed to be quite surprised at the examples I pointed out - what exactly do you think people are objecting to when they express concerns about anti semitism in the Labour party?

Of course it's a problem that it's not being dealt with. That's why people have been protesting. And then this is just the latest

"Mr Willsman, an ally of Mr Corbyn, was recorded during a National Executive Committee meeting suggesting Jewish "Trump fanatics" were behind accusations of anti-Semitism in Labour ranks and saying he had never seen anti-Semitism in the party."

I'm quite perplexed tbh!

I seriously think Margaret Hodge could end up with Labour in court.

The letter exchange between her solicitors and Labour is amazing. Labour looks as if they are completely out of their depth.

She has published their letter and her solicitors response on Twitter.

And another great is Margaret hodge.

This rabble!! Not fit to wipe her boots.