To be unsurprised that Corbyn is still being called anti-semitic?

[crunchymint]

Corbyn has been quite happy over the years to work with those who are clearly anti-Semitic. And he continues to do so. Whilst at the same time saying that he condemns all forms of racism, recently changed to say he condemns anti semitism. Does he not realise yet that people judge him by his actions, not his broad statements which are pretty meaningless? And until he clearly shows in his actions that he condemns anti semitism, these allegations will continue?

Lately we just help out trying to raise funds for a friends breast cancer support group, which advises anyone with breast cancer how to get treatments, local advice groups and benefits and next door neighbours homeless charity. We all do 10k races anyway, so combine both and raise money, they win we have fun

Good luck user! Sounds amazing. Hope that you stick around.

@YetAnotherSpartacus here's another roundup of labour anti semitism examples - some delightful holocaust and Jewish world domination 'jokes'

mobile.twitter.com/Mendelpol/status/978009855477809153

Being concerned about self ID is another example of Get Corbyn!!!
Wtf

spartacus

Again my advice is to read the whole thread and all posts. It really is worth the read.

oy

I refuse to call the present shadow front bench labour they are not. They are momentum. Back he just labour MPs like Yvette cooper are true labour.

Thanks bananafish - I'm beginning to understand the context and connections now.

Again my advice is to read the whole thread and all posts. It really is worth the read

Once again, I HAVE. I didn't grasp the context and connections, but I am beginning to do so from bananafish's posts.

Sorry posted too soon

yes of course there is racism etc everywhere but the thread was about Corbyn. So we discussed Corbyn.

Yes I agree I mentioned self ID and yes it’s definatly another reason I detest Corbyn and his cronies but won’t apologise for that.

So what do you think of the recent posts pointing out the problem of anti seminisn in ‘labour’ then? What’s your opinion?

Spartacus

My apologies then. Your recent post made me think you couldn’t have but again apologise.

My apologies then. Your recent post made me think you couldn’t have but again apologise

No problem ... I've been following from the start but it wasn't until bananafish posted that the penny dropped AND I've also Googled this in the past and still have not understood.

Good grief. I’ve just rtft and I’m stunned by the outright denial dribbling out of Momentum posters such as user and Frank Grimes. ‘Where’s the evidence’ (hint - it’s scattered all over the media and in your own posts on this very thread; ‘But the tories are doing it’ (and? This thread is specifically about the shameful antisemitism we are continuing to witness from the left); ‘look over there, there’s a pigeon’ (continual mind numbing whataboutery in a clear attempt not to address the issue under discussion - favourite tactics of Frank Grimes and user on this thread).

Shame, shame, shame (dingaling). To all the apologists on this board...we can see you and your increasingly tortured manoeuvring to detract attention from the vile AS elements on the left is very obvious. I suggest you raise your eyes from your own navel and realise the damage that is being done to labour in the eyes of the electorate every single day that this continues.

@YetAnotherSpartacus thank you and I'm glad if the posts have been helpful and enlightening

This comment from Keir Starmer on why the Labour decision re the definition of anti semitism is problematic

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-antisemitism-sir-keir-starmer-ihra-definition-code-of-conduct-jeremy-corbyn-a8437751.html

"The party omitted four of the examples: accusing Jewish people of being more loyal to Israel than the country they live in, suggesting Israel's existence is racist, holding Israel to a higher standard than other countries, and comparing Israeli polices to those of the Nazis."

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with criticism of Israel, I'm a British Jew who is horrified by the actions of the state of Israel. It's abhorrent.

But comparison of Israel to Nazis being deemed as totally OK and not anti semitic doesn't sit well with me.

But comparison of Israel to Nazis being deemed as totally OK and not anti semitic doesn't sit well with me.

Exactly, I said the same thing earlier in the thread, there is an element that are too quick to invoke Godwin's law etc.

"oh my god Israel is enacting laws reminiscent of modern day Mexico or China"

doesn't quite carry the same weight, but by adding this forced weight of Nazis does nothing but attempt to demonise.

I have often felt Keir Starmer holds back as he knows how easily he could be moved on from his position

But someone not in the Momentum circle really needs to step up now and challenge Corbin’s leadership

They probably won’t win but will win over many Labour supporters for trying and will gain support for doing and can challenge again at a peter date

Ffs not peter date - later date ...

And Corbyn

Argh switching off spell check

That's the issue for me - the comparison to the Nazis is never appropriate because it reeks of trying to rub a profoundly awful wound sorer.

By all means critique Israel's policies, many Israelis do too. But the nazi thing? If you can't see that doing that is wildly inaccurate and exactly the kind of demonization being discussed, I don't know what else to say.

Holy crap, now the KKK are supporting Corbyn. He really has become a cult messiah leader.

good grief, this is still going on? What is the purpose of all this furious anger and vitriol that we're all directing at each other? I missed some of the last posts but so far I haven't seen any of the Corbyn defenders come out with an anti-semitic statement - we all want people to be treated fairly regardless of their religion, race or colour.

Couple of things:

Firstly, the term "semite" doesn't just mean a Jewish person. Palestinians and people of Arab descent are also semitic.

It's not anti-semitic to stand up for semitic people who are being oppressed by an ultra right wing government composed of other semitic people.

Secondly - yes, Corbyn did share a platform with someone who said that the Israeli treatment of palestinians is similar to the way Jewish people were treated in the holocaust.

The person who said this was a Jewish Holocaust survivor. He's sticking up for Palestinians who - again - are also semitic. Not sure how this makes Corbyn an anti-semite.

Also, do the people slagging off Corbyn actually understand what the issue is with the IHRA definition of anti-semitism? Because even though the EU have nominally accepted the definition of it, the EU still imposes trade sanctions on Israel because they're breaching human rights legislation. From wikipedia:
"In particular, Israel views four decades of EU declarations on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict as one-sided and pro-Palestinian."

So even the EU, with it's adopted definition, is still technically in breach of the IHRA terms.

There are lots of Ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel protesting the treatment of Palestinians and the issues with illegal settlements and legislation making non-Jews second class citizens with less rights. By the IHRA definitions, these semitic people are also "anti-semites".

Lastly, I'm saddened by how many of us have swallowed Murdoch's propaganda designed to discredit a labour politician. Murdoch has been demonstrably anti-semitic in the past and is openly targetting left wing political parties.

Make no bones about it - if you're Jewish OR left wing, Murdoch hates you. He must be enjoying how we're all turning on each other or calling each other racists or ultra-nationalists. We're all pretty much on the same side - attacking anyone because of their religion or race is inexcusable, yet here we all are calling each other names.

Can't help notice that there doesn't seem to be any vitriol directed towards the one man who's busy attacking all of us and watching us tear each other down.

I missed some of the last posts but so far I haven't seen any of the Corbyn defenders come out with an anti-semitic statement

Maybe not on the thread directly, but there is a fair amount of ' Jews are exagerating' 'Jews need to shut up' and 'Jews don't matter' going on.

DeadHerring

Yes it’s still going on sorry yes Jews should just shut up shouldn’t they love. Must really annoy you. You can always hide the thread if it disturbs you.

Enthusiasm

Let’s hope fingers crossed.

spartacus no worries.

@DeadHerring any thoughts about the examples previously mentioned up thread? Selection below.

1. A Labour council candidate in Peterborough, Alan Bull, shared anti-Semitic material online which claimed that the Holocaust was a ‘hoax’. The Labour party was made aware of the posts in 2017, but only suspended the candidate when contacted by the Jewish Chronicle in March 2018. Bull says he has never denied the Holocaust and re-posted the article in question to find out what his friends thought of it.

1. A former Labour parliamentary candidate in Witham, John Clarke, shared a Neo-Nazi meme saying the Rothschild family has used money lending and Israel to ‘take over the world’. He said the meme ‘contained a great deal of truth’ and was later suspended.

1. Jackie Walker, formerly vice-chair of Momentum, said Jews were the ‘chief financiers of the sugar and slave trade’, criticised security for Jewish schools, and said Holocaust Memorial Day was not ‘inclusive’ enough. After the comments were made and widely condemned, Corbyn shared a platform and campaigned alongside Walker.

10. Nasreen Khan, a Labour council candidate subsequently barred from standing, asked: ‘What have the Jews done good in this world?’. She said schools were ‘brainwashing us and our children into thinking the bad guy was Hitler’ and said ‘Jews have reaped the rewards of playing victims’.

11. A Labour councillor in Birmingham, Zafar Iqbal, shared a David Duke video on Facebook entitled ‘CNN Goldman Sachs and the Zio Matrix’. The Labour party accepted Mr Iqbal’s apology and claim that he had have no recollection of sharing this video’ – no disciplinary proceedings were enacted.

12. Andrew Slack, a councillor in Chesterfield, was suspended after sharing an anti-Semitic meme of a blood-smeared, hook-nosed Israeli soldier. The meme said ‘Israel was created by the Rothschilds’.

@seasawride

Yes it’s still going on sorry yes Jews should just shut up shouldn’t they love. Must really annoy you. You can always hide the thread if it disturbs you.

So you literally read the first sentence of my post? Ok, then.

But if you just want to post sarcastic comments that draw lines in the sand, if you want to set people against each other without finding any common ground where we can work together - well, you're certainly doing a fine job.

Oh, and you might want to check your prejudices because your post contains a lot of assumptions.

How dare you assume that I think Jews should just shut up? Did you not read the bit where I talked about Jewish people protesting against Israel's treatment of Palestine?

How dare you assume that I'm acting against the Jewish community and don't have an investment or interest in it myself, just because I don't support the Israeli government?

Think about what you're saying, "love". Your privileged assumptions are exposing your prejudice here - your experience is not universal.

How about stuff like this, posted by a labour councillor and candidate, respectively. Is that OK?

@bananafish81

I don't know enough about those specific examples to be able to comment on them accurately but, from the short description you've posted, most of them sound grotesque and entirely unacceptable. Thank you for bringing them up - I'm interested in finding out more and why they weren't dealt with appropriately.

However, I'm not interested in defending idiotic politicians who say stupid, bigoted things. My main point is that the labour party shouldn't be vilified for not accepting the IHRA definitions verbatim - the definitions curtail free speech and support religious prejudice against an already oppressed people.

If the politicians who say these things aren't dealt with effectively, then that's a big issue and it needs to be addressed and idiots who actually believe them should be sacked. I have no disagreement with that.

However, it's a separate issue from saying that Corbyn's being anti-semitic for not adopting the IHRA definitions - one does not beget the other.

@DeadHerring it's not the IHRA definition that's the specific problem being discussed though. It's a systematic unwillingness to acknowledge or deal with the anti semitic behaviour that's sadly been growing within the party. Corbyn and the NEC have been very happy to look the other way until public pressure meant they couldn't keep ignoring it.

There's various links for each individual example and allegation here (yes it's the spectator but it links out to multiple sources, if you believe every single one is an anti Corbyn conspiracy then not much I can do to persuade you otherwise)

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/labours-pockets-of-anti-semitism-the-evidence/

Although probably worth noting that under the Labour definition, this post wouldn't be considered anti semitic, because they've omitted 'comparing Israeli polices to those of the Nazis' from the definition of anti semitism