to think my 9 year old is an entitled twat

[blehh]

I grew up in poverty. Parents sharing a tin of beans for dinner, sharing a bedroom with my brother in a flat so small it can't even legally be let as a dwelling any more. We never had holidays, spent summer at 20p church hall clubs, and clothes were from charity shops. As an adult I have been through some hard times, literal starvation for days.

I have a 9 year old daughter. She won't remember but we have queued at food banks and soup kitchens together. I have missed meals so she could eat. We had a hard few years for a while.

Now I have a great job and earn well, and I have tried very hard not to spoil her. It's tempting sometimes, because I can if I want to. She gets the occasional comic, we have McDonalds once a month or so, new clothes when required but half of them from charity shops. We give back to charity shops, always stop at homeless people and buy them a sandwich, and have nice days out. I didn't get her a tablet computer until a couple of months ago. We still eat the value range foods because I am cautious.

So I have been surprised lately by her awful, entitled attitude and I don't know if or how to nip it in the bud. She sulks if I say no to a comic. She demands I buy her things in the shop and shouts at me when I say no. She puts things in my shopping basket and tells me she hates me when I take them out. She loses coats and jumpers and lunchboxes on a regular basis and retorts "well you have loads of money, buy me a new one!". We go to the cinema once or twice a month, and share a pick n mix as a treat, and she has started to get gobby about not wanting to share. She tore a school library book up.

I encourage her to do chores for pocket money - 10p at a time - but there are also basics that are expected, like making her bed and picking her clothes up and not littering. She has started to refuse to help around the house at all.

This week she refused to make her bed, saying 'well Barbie can do it' (Barbie is my friend who does 2 hours cleaning a week - she started when I had a nasty accident - I don't really need her any more but feel it would be rude to let her go!). I bollocked her for it and said that Barbie is not here to do her bedroom, that's her responsibility. (I keep my house pretty immaculate, and always make sure it is tidy for Barbie, so she did not learn that attitude from me!)

She breaks toys and doesnt take care of them. She doodled on a brand new rug with permanent pen and shrugged when confronted. Her attitude absolutely stinks.

I lost my cool today and told her that if she doesn't quit her entitled brattery, we are going to spend a week living like we did five years ago so she can understand what life used to be like. Tinned spaghetti for days on end, no lightbulbs, no tablet, no TV, no taxis, no trains, bag up and give away toys and clothes to charity, and go volunteer in a homeless shelter or food bank for the week. It would be grim as all hell but maybe it's the shock she needs to really understand her privilege? I don't understand where it's come from - she sees her dad on weekends and his family make a few jibes about me being 'loaded', but I mean, we don't even have a car and we rent our house. I dress in H&M and charity shops, am not flash with money, and cannot believe the crap she is coming out with right now. Am I being unreasonable?

How much of it could be coming from her Dad's side of the family?
Do you think they could be saying to her "oh don't worry, your mum can just get you a new one now" or similar? In other words, they're encouraging her profligate behaviour because "you can afford it now".

I think you're doing all the right things by the sound of it, but she's still not "getting it" for some reason - and if she's got other people in her ear going on about how much you earn now and how well off you are etc., that might be a big factor. ESPECIALLY if they can't provide lots of extras for her because they're not that well off themselves.

Asking for anything and everything in shops is completely normal for nearly all children though - they see it, they want it - it's part of learning that we can't have everything we see the minute we want it though.

And actually I don't think it's a bad idea to take her back to the days of how poor you were - because (without wishing to jinx you or your jobs in any way) one never knows when those times might return!
If she experiences those hardships again (And it is NOT abuse, ffs, that's like saying all poverty-stricken parents are abusing their children, jeez!!) it might wake her up to how lucky she is now.
Hard to say though - she might just swan through it knowing full well that there's a time limit on it and you don't have to live that way.

However, given the amount of pocket money she gets, and extras for chores, I think if she wants "stuff" all the time then now is the time (if you haven't already done so) to insist that she pays for her own crap from now on (barring birthdays and Christmas, of course!). So if she wants that extra comic, she can pay for it out of her pocket money etc. etc.

Good luck but I would try to very carefully find out if someone is bending her ear at the weekends.

It’s obvious from your posts that you are doing your best and spending quality time with her, it must be really frustrating for you.

Sorry to hear that the reward jar doesn’t appear to be working. Perhaps you could change tack in your approach to dealing with her negative behaviours. She may be seeking a reaction from you and be pushing your buttons to test boundaries as previous posters have said.

Could you try a more authoritative approach? Be firm and don’t enter into discussion about her behaviour or negotiate with her about a choice of consequence.

I think you need to separate her behaviour from your past yy to this. I was poor growing up, huge family, not enough money coming in to feed and clothe us all. I can honestly say I never think about that when dealing with my DC, except when I thank my lucky stars that I don't have to struggle like my poor mum did. Money is still tight in our family now, but my 9 year expects trips to the cinema, days out etc, not because she is entitled or spoiled, but because they are reasonable and normal expectations in our society. We go to such places now and again, we are more likely to go to free places, parks etc, and often we just stay at home and she plays out with her friends. I don't bring money into it really, we go out when it suits. All kids act out sometimes and tearing up a library book is disgraceful behaviour, I would have gone apeshit over that. I am not getting my point across very well I fear, I just don't think her behaviour is entitlement as such, it's just bad behaviour and needs appropriate sanctions. My 9 year old can be a twat too sometimes btw so I sympathize.

Watching with interest. My DD is the same, slightly older. When she was little, as a single parent we were in the same situation as yourself, it was awful, I get stressed even remembering not eating for days on end, thinking of how to make a £1 or £2 last for a couple of days. I've worked my way up in my career, working till 2-3am when she was little to get here. You have been much more restrained than me, as I feel guilty that she didn't have much when she was younger-she has consoles, iPad, phone, lots of expensive gadgets. But she doesn't appreciate them or breaks them easily. We go to the cinemas and out for dinner regularly, but it is never enough!! I do ground her, and that does seem to calm the behaviour for a liitle while, but I just want her to stop being so ungrateful.

Sorry, longer than I expected!!

it all seems to be themed around 'i can lose and break things because you can just get more'

I've had this with my DC - I didn't make them do chores - went through lost property with them, their rooms, patched thinsg up, made them do without if possible - or if not bought cheapest versions - pointed out other things we could do with the money - given them a tongue lashing about being ungrateful.

I think it's been better since we've moved as many of their friends really are from poor households so I think they have by themselves realised they don't do so bad in comparison.

I would be absolutely sure she is losing them through carelessness and someone possible in guise of friend isn't taking them or breaking them and she doesn't want to admit that.

bleh you are basically rolling your eyes and angrily dismissing anything you do reply to and ignoring a lot of things posted.

What were you hoping for from posting?

10p is a meaningless amount of money so scrap those tasks even if they are 30 second tasks, it trivialises working for money. At 9 £5 per week is plenty, just set firm rules about what pocket money is for and never buy those things. If she doesn't want to share your cinema sweets it's fine, some people don't like the lack of control involved in sharing (you can't save your favourite til last for fear the other person will eat it, if you want to eat really slowly and have sweets all the way through or take some home the other person will probably eat your share) or the other person's hand dipping into the packet. Just let her use her pocket money for her own pick and mix or buy the same quantity as usual but divided into 2 bags.

If you work all the time that you aren't intensely focussed on DD or asleep when do you get down time? No time to yourself at all, even an hour in the evening, will make you a difficult person to be around.

blehh, I am actually trying to be helpful. I thought maybe life might be clearer and less stressed and simpler.
Is school run time fun?
Maybe a 9 till 5 work pattern would be easier.
Anyhow never mind.

someone seriously thinks having a week of no luxuries is emotional abuse?

No living in poverty for a week isn’t emotional abuse but doing things like taking away all or nearly all of her toys and clothes and giving them to charity is.

My dd is more fortunate than me in her childhood. It does rile me that what I give her in times of time, love and opportunity still is not enough. I sell my soul for her. However, if I treated her as I was treated as a child, I would be emotionally abusing her. And if I had treated my mother/parents the way she treats me/us, my life would have been more hellish.

I’ve felt very tempted to treat her the way I was treated at times because it feels like I got the shit when I was a child. And now I’m getting it again as an adult. And I’m doing my best not to repeat the pattern.

As for what to do, I think natural consequences are the best. I’ve always worked out dds currency and gone with that. Dd horse rides. So if she really pushes too far, she loses a lesson. It’s only happened twice in 4 years. And then because it was a big thing, she was given the chance to earn it back with positive behaviour and the caveat that she would pay for it out of her money.

You need to find your dds currency and for that maybe she needs to have an out of school activity or something else, which is sold as a big privilege. If it’s a sporting activity it’ll have the added bonus of creating endorphins and negative energy expenditure. Or perhaps she earns exciting things to do this holiday with positive behaviour. You could have some kind of “sticker chart” or penny jar and each time you catch good behaviour she gets a sticker, or have some specific targets with a couple of easy wins (perhaps to replace the 10p a chore) and when she earns say 20 she gets a small activity and if she decides to save more and achieves say 50 she gets a trip to a local theme park or some such. This way she also chooses whether or not to do her chores and she has a more tangible incentive.

As your dd is acting out so much, I’d go on the basis that something is upsetting her and she needs extra amounts of love and care. Not money. That something sounds like her father/his family. I tell my dd all the time how precious and special she is. I obviously have my moments of being shouty/ cross too so I’m not all perfect or anything. But as long as she knows what unconditional love is, I’m doing pretty well. The last thing you need is a battle of wills. She doesn’t know how to back down and will be looking to you to do it, which is why giving love works so much better.

I’d just like to add, I’m not sure I’d be protecting your ex to your dd as you have. I see nothing wrong with telling her you lent him £2k and that you work hard to earn money to do and have nice things. Daddy has chosen to do things differently and his choice has consequences. One of those consequences is not having nice things. And that if he’s cross he doesn’t have those nice things, he could choose to take a second job like you have. No judgments. Facts, which she can work out for herself.

A possibility is that, rather than being grateful for the "loans", your ex is sneering at your generosity and dripping poison into your DD's ear. "Your mother is loaded" "She can replace things" etc. Deflecting away from his issues.

I do know that many 9 year olds can be twatty. My late DH had to have a firm word with my then 9 year old DDS when he was unkind about my DD being dressed in charity shop clothes. He didn't know that my DD's father did not pay any maintenance, unlike his own dad who was supporting his mum (as he should have been). My DSS has grown into a kind and caring, lovely man. Was a silly, thoughtless comment, very typical I would argue of many 9 year olds.

Oh and sharing the pick and mix. It’s perhaps not about the sharing. It’s perhaps about her wanting to be recognised as more grown up and separate from you. Get one each for the same value. Or if it doesn’t work like that, take an extra cup and split it after paying.

Slow typer - what @Mummyoflittledragon says in her last paragraph.

Yes, she sounds like her behaviour is a bit brattish and I think some of the things you say you will do are good. I think you are right to feel frustrated and annoyed but kids go through phases and at that age she will be heavily influenced by her peers. Do you know her friends? Do they act and speak in a similar fashion? Whatever you are right to stamp on it but don't turn it into arguments each time as that just makes life miserable for both of you. Just set boundaries and stick to punishments.

My suggestions would be if she wants a comic or anything not on your list from the supermarket she can buy it from her pocket money unless you have agreed to purchase it. No arguments. If she really wants it she can have it but the cost is taken from her £5 pocket money. Teaches her budgeting and you can see if she really wants it or is just being a pain.

If she loses stuff then she has to do chores to buy a new one or it does not get bought. Only buy essentials if they are lost. As for not making her bed, she does not get pocket money unless she does. Or take away TV privileges or ground her or whatever.

Stop with the mcdonalds and cinema trips if she persists in this. Bad behaviour means no treats.

I haven’t rtwt but it sounds like you’re doing a fantastic job op. In terms of teaching her the value of money have you thought about showing her how long it takes to “earn” certain nice things? Or indeed pay for things that are lost or damaged?
For example, I’m assuming you had to pay for the damaged library book (or perhaps school took the hit on that one)? Say a standard paperback cost £6.99, and she “earns” £ per chore = how long it takes to pay off that item. I’m not suggesting you actually make her pay for her lost coats etc but well... maybe that’s the next step.

I'd be inclined to think that it's stemming from your ex's family trickling it into her ear since they've made comments in the past plus you've given him financial assistance from time to time.

However, how you counteract it, I'm not sure. You've also mentioned that she's in therapy for anger management so perhaps her therapist might have pointers or insight into how you could best approach it.

My dp has 3 older kids and experienced similar.
He drove them to the estate he grew up on which is extremely rough and took them to a jumble sale one Saturday morning - gave them 20p each to get in and donated lots of stuff they'd been ungrateful for!!
It worked!!!!!

It does sound like it is coming from your ex who even though he had the gall to take money off you now assumes you have money to throw away and has passed that opinion to your daughter. I would stop with the lending of money to your ex and would not protect him. That is not your responsibility.

As a previous poster said, I think she knows what buttons to push to get a rection from you.
My kids get an allowance and they are in charge of buying their own extras, including paying for stuff they lose. It’s amazing how careful they are with their possessions once they have to replace them using their own money. Ds also gets an allowance big enough to buy his own clothes.
I don’t get emotionally involved, it’s their problem and they are pretty good at finding solutions. I may empathize with ds when he wants a new video game, but needs new socks instead. Such is life.
I would avoid linking money to rewards and punishments.

I kind of see this as like a child who is binge eating and guarding food. They've been made to feel insecure about by food by having food constantly mentioned, food given as treats, threats of having food taken away. It's the same with money. She's trying to deal with all the talk of money around her and the uncertainty by being greedy. She's testing you because she's worried about the effects of having limited resources. I think your experiment could have a really damaging effect. The best thing I think you could do is tell ex H to stop bringing up money, stop going on about how terrible living in poverty is, give her regular pocket money, do away with the monetary value you put on chores.

Children do need to learn about financial responsibility and no family has limited resources, but you do that by helping them to manage small amounts of money and by explaining when they are given something that if they break it they won't get another. No need at that age to go into greater detail about how their boots cost £50 and mummy earns £10 per hour, children can't process that and it is stressful for them.

Unlimited resources that should say.

My mum used to say to me 'try to catch them being good'.

Definitely this.

I could have written the background to your post. I also grew up similarly, in my grandmothers house sharing a room with my mum and brother. We had fuck all, and when I had my daughter I had fuck all except a job which allowed day release college. Value bread and beans for lunch and dinner etc. We bought (with a £3k 5% deposit i put on a credit card) a shitty flat in the worst area of town and every penny I had went on doing the place up with my own hands with a view to selling/ renting it out. We did this twice more and I now have a 9 year old, own house no mortgage, car, well paid job etc. I think the only difference is I don't now make her feel like we are still living like how we were all those years ago we don't have to live off value food and charity shop clothes, we don't have to share sweets at the cinema. I think you've been too concerned with "spoiling" her that you're probably making her rebel against you in general.

Mines has new clothes, ipad fitbit xbox etc, holidays 4 times a year, trips out. Shes incredibly thankful for my car because she still remembers walking three miles home in torrential freezing rain because I didn't have money for a bus fare. We both got home, jumped straight in the bath and cried we were so so cold. I don't have to be always making it a "thing" about how we used to live, or how I grew up. She remembers! I'm sure deep down your daughter will have memories too, maybe not the day to day shite but there will be some there. Mines has no clue about the value of money but what 9 year old really does? Most teens and young adults don't! I've taught her empathy by explaining we're the lucky ones and it's up to us to give to food banks (we do every time we go to the shop) we do the monthly sponsoring and volunteer every so often at the local church food drives. Whats the point in teaching her that because some people are worse off we should act like that too? We've lived like that and it was shit!

Shes still told no and when I do theres never really an argument, sometimes I say yes sometimes I say no. It sounds like you need to work on your relationship in general, it seems quite fractured and a bit controlling at times, 10p a chore, behaviour jars, house rules, therapy for anger management. Even a "treat" is still limited in some way with rules that you go but have to share pick and mix etc. All a bit highly strung and I wonder if her reacting to that is to push you to your limits.
My whole mantra in parenting comes from a day trip when I was younger with my mum and her colleagues family. We got one of those big multipack tubs of mini muffins, the dirt cheap type. I remember my brother and me taking one and her two kids taking one. Later on we found out the other two kids had stolen the muffins and completely gorged on them. Later on I ask my mum why they did that and she said, oh they're never normally allowed sweet stuff. That was when it kind of dawned on me that a muffin was just a muffin to me, we had them or similar often enough to know that we didn't have to stuff our faces. The other mum had made them such a forbidden fruit that her kids had literally stolen them and stuffed their faces til it made them sick. It's formed a huge part of the way I parent now... Don't make a huge deal of bedtimes and I find mines naturally goes to sleep when shes tired because she doesn't feel like it's punishment or a strict rule. The same goes for ipads (she can take or leave it, its not monitored so she plays til she wants- which is usually an hour anyway!). The same will go for alchol as a teen etc. Set a boundary and kids will actively try to push it.

I'd say she's due to start her periods? My 10 year old is about to start.

I'm no expert but lashing out, breaking stuff and testing you to the extent she is. Do you think there could be some sexual, physical or emotional abuse from family, family friends, older boys at school or anywhere she goes?

I personally like your idea of going back to basics but I'd rule out the above first. My 10 year old doesn't talk about her feelings (she never has) so I make time once a week for a 1:1 (I have 3 DC) talk where we talk about silly things to begin with then I slowly turn the conversation to what's been happening and ask how that makes her feel.

It sounds like way too much anger and punishments going on. Can you not just try and enjoy her lovely 9 year old company without moralising about money etc

Been exactly where you are, we were dirt poor growing up, eldest kid started being an entitled brat, went full austerity, removed almost all his stuff for over a month, basic food, no treats, amazing after mega complaining he got it!! His behaviour improved dramatically, I don’t get why people make excuses for children behaving badly, if they are sheltered, fed and loved they have nothing to complain about, you sound like an amazing mum

My eight and a half year old DS is similar and I do think it’s the early stages of puberty, his legs are also ridiculously hairy all of a sudden on top of the mood swings and sudden sense of entitlement. My DS has moments of being his usual lovely self then suddenly he’ll flip and behave like a twat. And yes, it is twattish behaviour. I have refused to buy him something and been met with “but why, you have loads of money”. I don’t, actually but besides the point... it’s so rude.

I do just think it’s normal testing of boundaries and I think your idea of losing luxuries for a week is great. My DS is on a weeks ban from his games console because of behaviour earlier in the week. It’s not emotional abuse to take away luxuries .

Aah my 9 year old is also an entitled twat op, I suspect it’s the age.

Nothing is good enough and nothing safisfies. If I say he can have a cookie he demands two and has a strop when I say no, literally every boundary or offer gets pushed until I want to take all luxuries away to teach him a lesson.

DM always says easy children make difficult teens so I’m hoping this premature Kevin phase will mean an easy ride for me in a few years, probably not though