4per cent of new dads have post natal depression

[longwayoff]

Says LBC quoting a Stanford University study. Expert currently pointing out that as pnd is female hormone related, its unlikely to be pnd. What does mumsnet think? Personally I have a cynical eyebrow raised.

No men do not suffer from PND it’s different and it is very important that PND is recognised for what it is

Of course men can get depression feel overwhelmed no one is denying they can’t and thisbneeds to be discussed more and for men to be encouraged to get support and help

I think Berrand is speaking a lot of sense here, and linking to useful stuff.
Opinions, you say Bertrand has an inability to see men the same as women. The definition of equality . I disagree with your definition. Equality refers to equal worth and equal rights. Men and women aren’t the same and don’t need to be in order to be equal.

Agree bertrand russell much more help should be made available for mens mental health. Its such an upheaval welcoming a new baby and so utterly life changing that new parents could all make use of any help offered.

Well I’m not bothered about them calling it PND but I think that’s because so many people are so quick to say ‘don’t be ridiculous a man can’t be depressed after the birth, what’s bloody changed for him, so he can’t go to the pub with his mates, man up’ etc etc and that’s so dangerous. I agree it needs it’s own name, PBD sounds good to me! As Bertrand has mentioned, Stuart Goldsmith talks about this quite a lot and it’s a revelation. It’s rare to hear about how much some men have suffered and the discussion and help needs to happen.

I’m afraid I think it’s just another form of male privilege to appropriate PND. Setting an alarm to go off every three minutes because you’re exhausted, but fear your child will stop breathing if you fall asleep, is PND: feeling ‘pushed out’ and worrying about whether you need a bigger car, is not.

Are you saying men can’t have that kind of fear kitty?

bert is correct IMO.

Equality here is not going to be served by labelling Male depression as PND.

It’d be served by making awareness of Male new parental depression, and by increasing access to support for both men and women.

The hormonal influence IS part of the biological origin. Imagine you’re creating the diagnostic guidelines for each sex - the criteria you’d need to meet for each sex would be different. Lumping both together reduces the ability to diagnose correctly, to research correctly and to treat correctly.

If you flip it round, it’s like diagnosing cardiovascular issues like heart attack in women and men. Those have different symptoms but the same underlying etiology (the opposite of PND where symptoms may be similar but origins are different.) they needed to educate the public that heart attacks in women present differently but it’s still a heart attack because the previous public info was that heart attacks look like x,y,z and that info was tailored for men. Heart attacks in women were being missed.

Here you’d need to say that while the origins are different men can also experience depression after birth and here are signs to look for.

Equality doesn’t mean treating both sexes as one in medicine. It means tailoring the information/diagnostic criteria/treatment to each sex so that they achieve equal access and outcomes.

Actually, I think I am. I’m aware of the disinclination of men generally to engage with MH services with they suffer with a range of things from depression to anorexia, and that’s a big problem. But I watched a documentary about men with what they termed PND, and it was all “I felt marginalised” “I worried about money”. I think that’s ‘simple’ depression.

Spot on bowlofbabelfish you can’t just lump men and women together in healthcare .

Something like Post Parental Depression is probably more apt. Our previous neighbors were a same sex couple and had a baby. The lady who didn't carry the baby had an awful time afterwards.

DH had a hard time for about a week. I had a stressful childbirth, DH thought he was going to lose me. He absolutely panicked and luckily here in New Jersey they require mothers be screened for PND. I was very hormonal and was referred to the psych team and both DH and I were seen separately and then together.

This is why post natal hospital stays need to be completely rethought. Instead of wards, family rooms are fanastic. Have LCs helping new mothers BF. Let new mothers stay for a week until they are rested. Yes it costs money but it costs us more to not do this.

Do you not realise how your comments are just minimalising the issue though and turning it it a them v us thing?

You can not make such a statement because it simply will not be true. There will be men who have that problem and we don’t want to create a world when men are scared to ask for help because of judgemental comments like yours

Calling it PND is wrong - it just needs a different name

Right. I agree.

BUT I think we need to be careful about dealing with that.

If a guy came to me and said “I think I have PND”, my first reaction wouldn’t be “fuck off”, it would be “ok, have you got any help?”

Well, I disagree, I’m afraid. I think it’s fairly obvious from my comments that I don’t think men should always just ‘buck up’. But I feel in this, as in everything, there are degrees, and I think the kind of PND you might feel as a mother simply can’t be replicated in men. I’m afraid I’m unswerving in this opinion, so continuing to have a go at me isn’t going to change anything. Sorry.

So now we're playing the "I care about men more than you do" game rather than looking at a real issue and thinking about how it can be addressed. Fair enough. This manhating feminist has tried.

I think given that the in the majority of women with 'PND' it has nothing to do with hormones, it is perfectly reasonable to say men get PND too.

It is however completely unreasonable to lump the very wide range of depression related illnesses experienced by women post partum into the category 'PND'.

For one thing, as this thread shows, many people don't seem to know that PND often has sweet FA to do with hormones. This doesn't help people to recover, because the advice to wait out the hormone issue, or stop breast feeding is anywhere from useless to counter-productive.

So how about we have 'post natal hormonal depression' and 'depression' where 'depression' can very often be triggered by sudden traumatic events or changes in lifestyle, for example life threatening experiences, having babies, losing loved ones, suddenly becoming a carer, losing your job, getting divorced etc. etc.

I completely agree with @Sirzy ... some of the “examples” given of what is a PND symptom can be more applied to what my DH went through to what I went through. Some are saying women can only feel these things - why? Because we’re the ones who give birth? I understand the hormonal aspect is different but the change in responsibility of suddenly being there for a tiny human can be exactly the same.
In fact my PND resulted in a complete disinterest in my child, I didn’t want him around me at all. I feel awful saying that now but that’s the reality of how it felt at the time.

Sorry kitty your remarks suggesting men are just worried about the car are minimalising things and are dangerous.

Right. Suggestions? What needs to be done?

The biological difference is the key and why it’s diagnosed as it is.

A man cannot have PND because he has not had the hormonal/physical triggers.

He can have depression, anxiety etc and that is an issue that requires treatment.

Good practice here would be to speak to both parents and screen for post parental / natal effects.

Calling what men experience PND would not clinically be the best way forward.

My DH got anxiety/depression a few days after the birth of our dd. He slept on the sofa for 10 weeks because he couldn't sleep in the same room as her, cried himself to sleep every night, went to counselling which didn't help. He came out of it gradually. She was a planned baby btw, very much wanted by both of us, the reality and responsibility seemed to send him into a tailspin though.

@M3lon good point.
I was told by friends it would go away because of hormones and it didn’t. Luckily the GP took me seriously and referred straight to therapy.
Also the variety of examples people are giving are giving of their PND there is no “one size fits all” symptom and therefore no “one size fits all” solution! Therapists and GPS need to be trained in that (which the ones I’ve met have been) and tailor treatment to the individual.

It's situational depression not PND. They need help too regardless of what type of depression they have.

Are they? Super. Perhaps the man concerned ought not to have provided that as an example of why he felt they had PND, then. ‘Dangerous’ indeed. I think it’s pretty dangerous to be too quick to term something ‘PND’.

Unfortunately lumping men and women together on this issue makes it less
Likely that women will get the help needed with post natal depression , what happens when men start saying to their wives oh it’s just as bad for me you know you can’t possibly be feeling that way because I’m not .

According to Some people on here if John Clayton ex wife should have told him that he was suffering from male privilege maybe his son would have his father alive.

As far as I know postnatal means after Birth so anybody can use that, postpartum should be used for women only