To be surprised at how much bullying is treated as inevitable?

[Spaghettijumper]

On threads where, say, a boy is wearing 'girly' clothing or is in some way different, there seems to be a lot of responses saying 'he/she will be bullied' as though that's a good reason not to do it/not to allow the child to do it.

It surprises me - do people really live in such fear of other people's responses?

My son wears dresses and yes people make silly comments but there's no way I'd say he shouldn't wear dresses because of that - surely that's just teaching him that other people get to decide what he wears? He just brushes the comments off and over time no one even notices the dresses any more. The vast majority of people say absolutely nothing, or even compliment him on his dresses - there are a lot of kind and friendly people in the world!

In my experience, no matter what you do, someone will have a negative reaction/a nasty comment - if you live your life anticipating the negativity and trying to avoid it, there's a lot you'll miss out on.

AIBU to think the response to possible bullying isn't to go ahead and give the bullies what they want ahead of time (ie total conformity) but to develop the resilience to say 'yes you don't like what I do, but I really don't care'?

yes and sadly at 7 he has no idea of understanding the risks that’s a parents job.

It does genuinely surprise me. I didn't realise the level of fear involved. People are talking about risk and damage etc, just from wearing one type of clothing instead of another. I didn't get how seriously some people took it. It's helpful for me to understand that.

There is a huge assumption that, in an ideal world, everyone should be a total individual.

But is that how we are? Isn’t our nature to band together in tribes and wear distinguishing clothes etc to show that we belong? Should people never dress fashionably but merely wear what they want without reference to anyone else? Would a black tie dinner feel the same if some guests had chosen to wear shorts and a t shirt, merely because they felt like it?

I know that there is a huge debate about sex/gender with the whole trans thing but my instinct is to say that most people want to fit into a mode of dress that the rest of their sex chooses at that particular time. There is also a significant (but very vocal) minority who believe that gendered clothes should not exist. I don’t know where this debate will end, although I suspect fashion brands are still confidently making and marketing ‘gendered’ clothing.

The reality though is that 95% + of boys will not be wearing dresses.

For me there is a lot of fear around my dc being singled out for any preventable reason.

This mainly comes from me having extremely relaxed parents, who let me choose what to wear and do what I wanted to.

It didn’t end well and I am still scarred (emotionally and physically) from it.

However, I have recently been diagnosed as an adult with ASD (it was flagged up to me after dd’s paediatrician suggested I was too)

That probably goes some way to explaining why I was unable to figure out social norms for myself, and why I became such a target.

I think challenging social norms as an older teenager/adult carries less risk than doing it as a young child.

I agree with your post Larry. I'm not sure what your point is though? DS does a lot of group things, and often wears the same clothes as his friends, then sometimes he does something different. So what? What I'm interested in is this strong feeling that he should do only what other people do, to the extent that some people feel it's actually dangerous for him not to. That's not a matter of just going along with norms, that's an actual fear around breaking norms.

I think you are being deliberately obtuse OP. As pp have said, we don’t live in a perfect world. Yeah, it would be great if we could express ourselves freely without fear of being laughed at, or we were all able to shrug off laughter and ridicule the way you were so able to do as a teen, but very few people have that strength. Being laughed at, sneered at, people making snide remarks just within earshot, can have the effect of hurting peoples feelings. You seem to really struggle with this concept. It’s up to you and your son what he wears, but pretending to be ignorant of the fact that there are horrible people in this world who will shout things, nasty people who will make remarks, people who will belittle your son, people who will tell him he is wrong, and stupid etc etc is going to have consequences. As I have seen you ask “what consequences?”...
He may struggle to understand why he is being singled out. He may start to feel like he is ‘wrong’ for liking what he likes. He may start to wish he was different. I am not saying he will. I am
not saying you couldn’t support him through all this, and help him to become a strong person with fantastic self esteem, who doesn’t give a damn what people think. I just think you are being very deliberately obtuse, and refusing to accept that your sons decisions may have ramifications, which may affect him in later life. However this is true of all our decisions and no one can predict every outcome. I also think you seem like an intelligent woman seeking reactions from people and being a bit goady tbh, asking everyone “but why? But why?” When they have been perfectly clear in their responses. You asked for opinions when you started this thread, if you didn’t want people to disagree with you, why bother?

Godiva what happens when 20 kids are around you shouting "poof" and you are, in fact, gay? Do you start fancying women to protect yourself?

What do you do when you are harrassed because of the colour of your skin? Hide it?

What do you do when you're harrassed by a class of boys including the teacher because you're a girl who dares to like science? Change to English lit and history instead?

I was quite badly bullied for 4 years. Trying to conform did not help me, learning to have confidence in myself and to simply not give 2 fucks did. These days I would urge bullied children to tell an adult - schools take these these things much more seriously these days. But in the end you have to decide what's important to you and stand by it.

Agree totally with everything @deltazulu89 said. OP if you don’t respect or want to listen to the opinions of all the people who have commented here, often through the knowledge that comes from personal experience, than just give up on this conversation. Because I agree, you’re being deliberately obtuse and goady.

@barbarianmum of course not. But by dressing in a way that deliberately goes against the grain and societal acceptance then you can’t be baffled if people target you. If you’re gay/ black/ like science then that’s not something you can hide or should hide. But you don’t choose to put on skin/ sexual preference or a favourite subject as you do a bloody dress. That’s not the same at all!!!

And telling an adult won’t make you be accepted or liked by your peers, will it? Being an outcast is bloody horrible and it’s not worth making a stand over a dress/ skirt over.

Well firstly the OP's son isn't being harrassed or bullied - so this is about whether he should be pre-emptively made to change the way he dresses in case he is bullied in the future? I think that's a sad way to live.

And if he is bullied, he may well choose to ditch the dresses - which may or may not help. But if he does decide that the way he dresses is important to him and refuses to change, then he should be supported not told that he's "brought it on himself" if others start picking on him. And the reality in secondary is that if bullies are dealt with severely he won't be ostracised because most kids wont actually care what he wears - and if they're not afraid they'll be picked on for not going along with the bullying, they'll live and let live.

Op- you only seem to be responding to people saying that you should stop him. Most people aren’t saying that. But that doesn’t seem to fit your narrative......lll

I am a man, and a dad to two teenage boys.
I agree mainly with Bertrand Russell our 18 year Ds1, when 10 and at primary, came home with letter for new players for a netball(high5) team. He was 5'6" and a rugby league player from 9, hates football, it said unisex, but was clearly aimed at girls, he begged us to play. We explained some would say he was a girl, he said 2 (girls) play league with, they did, and girls play cricket for school, they did and do, so we said ok.
Long story short, he was only boy to play netball in county at 10, at 11 he won player of season, there where 4 other boys in other teams, and now his old school has boys playing every season, in fact every team does.
He wears pink too, but so does his league and union team kits and too be fair so do Leeds Rhino's, Hull FC and KR, Warrington Wolves and Catalan Dragons.

I as a 49 year old have wore skirts, from 16 for young farmers to raise money, and I will happily walk around town with my DW handbag on my shoulder. Only last month wife was convinced she had lost it, I just picked up from table where she left and carried until she needed it. Noticed last week both boys have done it too for her.
MIL and SIL hate it, told wife it's not what men do, funnily enough my dad carried my mums, and my best man does too.
I know I am no less masculine or lesser man than larry, or my sons are too, especially my netball playing flanker, it says more about men like larry then me.
So as long as your boy is happy and knows what he wants, let him go for it OP.
God it was still a crime to be a gay man, when we won the world cup, in 1966. Thank god there where brave people who fought for their rights, they allowed people like me carry handbags and Ds to play a "girls" sport and wear pink.

Just watch for bullies, if they start, inform school straight away.
Good luck

op you are being deliberately dense. If your download ears a dress he is going to stand out at school whether he wants to orun not. As a result a best there is going to be low level teasing but he will be a target. If he is prepared for this and the choice is his own fine. But if you are insisting he wears a dress/ not making him aware of the possible reactions you are faling him. At that age kids usually want to fit in so even if he is happy he may find other kids don't want to play with him as they don't want to become targets also

It's really weird how people don't seem to be understanding what I'm saying.

To reiterate, I know people can be horrible. However I don't think the solution is to change yourself to make them less horrible. It doesn't work.

@zwellers I've said at least three times that I don't make him wear a dress, why on earth would I?? And that I've talked about people being nasty. He knows.

People are saying I should stop him Bertrand, not everyone but a few.

Really interesting thread. My DD refuses point blanket to wear or play with anything she perceives to be 'girls' clothes or toys.

I tried to steer her towards dresses and skirts but she refused to wear them. She has been like this since the age of 2. She now wears all boys clothes. Shoes, pants, trousers, the lot.

I have gone through every emotion about how I feel about it. Her year group don't bat an eyelid. Many parents have commented how strong a character she is and how peer pressure doesn't effect her at all.

She is well aware she is a girl, isn't masculine in any way. She just doesn't choose to wear girls clothes or show any interest in stereotypical girl activities.

It has been difficult for me to accept at times. At a family wedding she was a page girl, not a bridesmaid. No one batted an eyelid.

I do wonder if it's 'easier' or more acceptable that she is a girl dressing as a boy rather than a boy dressing as a girl?

Only time will tell about her sexuality. Interestingly she does think her Y4 peers are ridiculous for fancying each other. She's happy to be friends with girls and boys.

I worry about bullying but if anyone asks her why she's wearing boys shoes she just says why not?

I do wonder if she'll ever wear 'female' clothes. But after 7 years of it I really don't care.

A few people have said 'in an ideal world...' thing is, we make up the world. If we just accept that there's bullying and enforce conformity nothing will change. As user said in his very well-written post, it takes people changing things for anything to get better

Forgot say, numerous male friends, especially from the rugby club, where horrified we let him play a girls sport. He'll go soft, "he bat for the other side", no Fcking way would my son leave the house to play netball. Two even tried to tell his coach, and have him dropped, his coach said brilliant, he was one of the best ball handlers/catches in team , he has improved no end since he started.
In fact they started playing high5 to improve handling.
Ignore others, as long as he is happy, leave them to their small narrow minded worlds.
By the way Ds1 has continued to play rugby until 18, and his only one of the team left doing so.
My wife and I was asked what he ends up gay or wearing dresses. Wife isn't too worried, my answer is so what, I would give him a hug and shake his hand saying I am proud off you, he will always be my son
Christ when will people leave others alone, young men under the age of 25 are more likely to commit suicide than any other age, for fucks sake, give them a bloody break and let them be themselves.

Sorry... posted too soon. I have had other parents tell me I should make her wear girls clothes. When I've asked them why they can't really tell me.

I have a close friend who finally admitted that she had judged me for a number of years for allowing my DD to dress as a boy, but actually she could now see DD is strong enough to make her own mind up about what she wears.

I always say, just let's all come back when they're 21 and see how it panned out...

I think her being a girl does probably make a difference @thistooshallpass - after all most girls wear trousers regularly. I think it's seen as embarrassing for a boy to dress like a girl but not the other way around. The reasons for that are obvious to me but I'd rather not derail into that!

I'm failing to see how skin colour is the same as wearing clothes.

There are things you can’t avoid such as the way you look and children will always find something to pick on but my thinking is, why set your child up with a ready made reason to be bullied? Be that a ridiculous name or clothing that stands out a million miles from their peers. Why do it? Doesn’t make sense to me. I’d rather make sure they were armed with self confidence but also ensure they weren’t walking into a lions den ready to be eaten.

'I'm failing to see how skin colour is the same as wearing clothes.'

And posters have been saying I'm obtuse!

I would argue the homophobic argument is flawed as boyish dress is a feature of butch lesbians. My daughter wears boys clothes but that isnt a thing. In fact id rather she did that than attract the sexual attention of boys and men. Dresses on boys doesnt attract that-symbolically-it attracts ridicule.

Where do you draw the line @Mousefunky? If people are bullied for singing do you stop them from singing for example?

Well now its you being obtuse. My non-white family are hardly the same as your presumably white, dress wearing boy. They are completely different.
In fact the dress wearing/gender non-conformity is a privilege of usually white middle class people who can choose to dip in and out of acceptability. In our culture it wouldnt be thought of, perhaps as we don't invite further discrimination. If you cannot see the difference then i despair.