To be surprised at how much bullying is treated as inevitable?

[Spaghettijumper]

On threads where, say, a boy is wearing 'girly' clothing or is in some way different, there seems to be a lot of responses saying 'he/she will be bullied' as though that's a good reason not to do it/not to allow the child to do it.

It surprises me - do people really live in such fear of other people's responses?

My son wears dresses and yes people make silly comments but there's no way I'd say he shouldn't wear dresses because of that - surely that's just teaching him that other people get to decide what he wears? He just brushes the comments off and over time no one even notices the dresses any more. The vast majority of people say absolutely nothing, or even compliment him on his dresses - there are a lot of kind and friendly people in the world!

In my experience, no matter what you do, someone will have a negative reaction/a nasty comment - if you live your life anticipating the negativity and trying to avoid it, there's a lot you'll miss out on.

AIBU to think the response to possible bullying isn't to go ahead and give the bullies what they want ahead of time (ie total conformity) but to develop the resilience to say 'yes you don't like what I do, but I really don't care'?

He's not thick larry, he knows that girls wear dresses and boys don't generally. It doesn't make a difference to him.

I believe @GodivaEater that you aren't born with a 'thick skin' you develop it and that actually it's one of the most valuable things to have. I think people who are constantly trying to conform are the ones who are going to struggle because no matter what you do, someone will always always always criticise. I don't think any amount of staying within norms will protect you - everyone gets nasty comments at some point. So it's not a matter of changing who you are, it's a matter of developing confidence and resilience to just be who you are no matter how much people try to drag you down.

If you don’t care - as you keep repeating - why ask the question of the hive mind in the first place?

The thing is though even if you are perfectly ‘normal’ eg dress normally, are a normal weight, cone from a normal home, eat normal food- kids are little shits who will find ANYTHING different! I liked books so I was teased for that and I was slightly taller so I was teased for that, my friend had longish hair so she was teased for that, my brother is ginger so he was teased for that. And it also depends on what school you go to - in yr 6 I was teased for wearing a summer dress as they are babyish apparently whereas my beat friend at another school was teased because she didn’t wear one because she had started her period and was worried about leakage. It doesn’t matter how you dress your kids, or what toys you buy them. What really bothers me is when I express my love for superheroes at school and 7 yo kids tell me that I shouldn’t like it because superheroes are for boys!! What sort of toxic masculinity crap are we bringing our kids up in when even Wonder Woman can’t be a female role model because they are being taught Disney is for girls and Marvel/DC is for boys (try telling them that Disney own Marvel and watch their little heads explode!)

I was almost with you until your comments about bullying which are quite frankly insulting to those who've been bullied, by saying if they'd not bern bothered by it ir been stronger theyd have moved on. Im actually quite alarmed how black and white your views are, certainly your experience isnt the same as for all people and luck, i would argue played a part. As did the determination of the bullies. You are being remarkably naive by believing that your attitude will make your son immune from bullying. I hope that is the case, but you are foolish to think so.
I also think some of those who have been bullied on here will feel offended by the suggestion that they should have shown they werent bothered. Of course people cant all do that. Proper bullying, which i dont think you have understood the severity of day after day bullying. 'they tried' isnt insight. It isnt bullying. People commit suicide for being bullied, or should they have said 'so what' as well?

@barbarianmum how exactly? So say you’ve got 20 bullies around you shouting ‘poof’ and pushing you about, how do you tackle that?

I agree to a point, I don’t think we should all be frightened people who conform, but sending a boy to school in tights and a skirt is quite out there at this point in time. So prepare for the onslaught. How are you going to tackle it if it affects his confidence? What will you do?

Spaghetti,

I notice that you ignored my question about how the conversation between you went.

I would posit that he asked why dresses were in the girls’ section and you explained that it was silly sexism and ‘performing gender’ (in suitable terms for a 7 year old and how proud you would be if he sometimes wore dresses.

I suspect strongly that he was pleading his mother rather than ‘choosing his own clothes’.

Sorry for typos

'I think you are judging people who aren't as resilient as you. That's great if you don't care what people think about you or your child i admire you, but a lot of people get upset by people's words and actions (otherwise bullying wouldn't exist) and dont want there children to experience the pain and humiliation they did, that doesn't mean they are lesser people or bullies as you seem to be making out. Not wanting your child to be bullied so making decisions that you think will most minimise the chance of that is not shit parenting.'

I'm not judging people who are 'less resilient.' Being resilient isn't genetic, it's something you build up over time. How do you make decisions to minimise bullying? - that's a genuine question by the way, because all the children I saw bullied were very nice, ordinary children. The only decision that could have helped them was the decision to build their confidence (as well as the decision to deal with the bullies of course).

Yes I’m quite insulted OP that you reckon nobody should be hurt by bullying- if only they’d been like you, eh? Nobody would ever commit suicide over it. Well done you.

If you really were that confident in your conviction about this you would not have started this thread.

How do you decide to build confidence? You’re talkingot of your arse OP. If you’re constantly bullied at school your confidence doesn’t exist.

Again, an insulting answer. People with confidence have it eroded by bullies. Im fucking well the most resilient person i know, nothing bothers me. But i can see others are bothered. Im not arsed after 20 years of dv, nothing can touch me now.
Bullies pick on anyone, being like you wont change that. It was luck that meant you werent picked on, as much as anything.

M3lon "I think every single poster who says children should be made to conform to stereotypes by their parents should actually go home tonight and make sure they haven't modelled to their children that only people who conform have value. "

I so agree with this M3lon.

Kid puts on socks with sandals
Parent makes them take the socks off
Kid learns that socks with sandals are not ok
Kid repeats that next time they see someone with socks and sandals

Worse if they say not to do it because it's ridiculous, or everyone will laugh behind your back and don't qualify that by saying no that would be bullying or mean behaviour. Kid learns that this is the response their parent makes to socks and sandals, so that's what they do when they see someone else do it. So you've just taught your kid something that's ok to tease or criticise or bully over. So on it goes to the next generation.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong or unsuitable about either socks with sandals or boys or men wearing dresses. It's all so ludicrously arbitrary.

'If you don’t care - as you keep repeating - why ask the question of the hive mind in the first place?'

I'm curious.

'The thing is though even if you are perfectly ‘normal’ eg dress normally, are a normal weight, cone from a normal home, eat normal food- kids are little shits who will find ANYTHING different!'

I agree totally @iamthere123 - I don't see how any parent can ensure their child never has a mean comment directed at them - children can be mean about just about anything!

'How are you going to tackle it if it affects his confidence? What will you do?'

Talk it through with him. Find ways to deal with it. Same as anything really.

That's fair enough if you think that larry. It isn't what happened but hey ho. It's not really worth convincing you.

'I was almost with you until your comments about bullying which are quite frankly insulting to those who've been bullied, by saying if they'd not bern bothered by it ir been stronger theyd have moved on. Im actually quite alarmed how black and white your views are, certainly your experience isnt the same as for all people and luck, i would argue played a part. As did the determination of the bullies. You are being remarkably naive by believing that your attitude will make your son immune from bullying. I hope that is the case, but you are foolish to think so.
I also think some of those who have been bullied on here will feel offended by the suggestion that they should have shown they werent bothered. Of course people cant all do that. Proper bullying, which i dont think you have understood the severity of day after day bullying. 'they tried' isnt insight. It isnt bullying. People commit suicide for being bullied, or should they have said 'so what' as well?'

I can see why you feel that way and I think I worded it wrong. What I'm saying is that changing what you do isn't a defence against bullying - bullies will bully no matter what you do. So the only possible defence is to build up your resilience so the bullying just doesn't work. For many people that's just not possible - they don't have the foundations or the support network to build the resilience and so the bullying does have a terrible and often devastating effect on them. What I'm saying is that as an approach, getting children to change isn't one I agree with, because it doesn't work.

Socks and sandals arent boys and dresses. One is for comfort, the other is a visible breach of social norms which will attract the wrong kind of attention.

'Bullies pick on anyone, being like you wont change that. It was luck that meant you werent picked on, as much as anything.'

I was picked on, for years, by the same girl. All through primary and at the start of secondary. I say that she 'tried' to bully me because even though she was incredibly persistent it never really worked - I always saw her as a bit of a pathetic loser who was obsessed with me for some reason. It was only when we went to secondary and she recruited some minions and started going for my best friend that I really had to deal with it.

it makes far more sense to develop confidence so that the bullying washes off you.

Ah the old " well it your fault for being to sensitive "

It was easier to dismiss that when I had physical injuries.

I mean I still got told I was being to sensitive and making too much fuss - but when your sporting a black eye or nose bleed it's so much easier see this as yet more minimising and victim blaming.

Bullying isolates you and strip you of confidence - which obvioulsy makes it extremely hard to just get over it.

It's great if your boy is not facing any social difficulties for dress wearing and he’s making that choice and is happy with it. I don't think your situiation is the same as the four year old boy starting school's situation though.

'How do you decide to build confidence?'

The child themselves won't build their own confidence, that's too much to ask. Adults need to work with the child (as I do with my DS) to build their confidence.

So whatever kids face at school, violence or intimidation or whatever, if their parents are good enough at ‘building their confidence’ it will all get brushed off and be fine? Bollocks.

'I mean I still got told I was being to sensitive and making too much fuss - but when your sporting a black eye or nose bleed it's so much easier see this as yet more minimising and victim blaming. '

I would never think someone was too sensitive or making too much fuss, especially if they're physically hurt. In that case the adults around you really let you down, very badly.

It's not a matter of just throwing a child to the wolves and ignoring how they're feeling. It's a matter of working with them to ensure they're happy and making sure they have the personal resources to deal with situations or to ask for help if they don't.

It is never acceptable for a bullied child to be ignored. Never.

YANBU OP.

I was particularly shocked by one response on the other thread along the lines of "he'll be bullied and it'll be entirely your fault". Nothing like a bit of victim blaming eh. It's certainly not the bully's fault

Kids don't get bullied because of what they wear. They get bullied because the bully can pick up on a weakness (which can be insecurity about clothes) and exploit it.

Spaghetti,

I think that because you avoided the question. I have a seven year old boy and I know what they are like, fascinated about why things are as they are and asking endless questions. A biased parent can easily give them a suitable steer whilst maintaining that is what the child wanted to do.

Strangely my kids have someone in their school who likes to dress effeminately (as in more like a traditional girl than a traditional boy. It is lovely that he is so well tolerated but all the other kids do think he is a ‘bit strange’.

Fitting in is not stupidity. It is how we are as primates. Look at how teenagers are so violently tribal in dress and music. It gives them their identity among their friends. I somehow doubt you would walk down the high street in a violent area at night dressed in a silk dress and Cartier jewellery.

You are conducting an experiment using your son. Sure, in a utopian society, we should be able to wear what we want or even nothing at all, but it does not work in the real world.

'So whatever kids face at school, violence or intimidation or whatever, if their parents are good enough at ‘building their confidence’ it will all get brushed off and be fine? Bollocks.'

No of course not. Where did you get that from? If there is violence or intimidation then that requires serious intervention. Even if there is taunting and name calling that requires intervention. I'm not at all saying that a child building confidence will protect them from everybody. I'm saying that a child changing who they are won't protect them from bullying- that conforming to what bullies want won't help the situation.

My original point was that I didn't agree with previous thread where posters said a child should change in order to avoid bullying, because I don't think that's the right choice and because I don't think it actually works.

Ok larry.

And now you are incanting all the right words about bullying, but they directly contradict what you said earlier.

However resilient one is the only way to deal with severe bullying is to deal with the bullies.

Right, but attending school in dresses is asking for trouble. Anyway, I give up. You’re clearly completely hellbent on thinking your son can take whatever is thrown at him at this tender age so you carry on. For his sake I hope you’re right.