Friends sending their DS to school in a pinafore.

[RelentlessSylvia]

Friends (I'm pals with both halves of the couple) have a DS, 4.

He's starting primary after the summer and they've bought him pinafores rather than shorts or trousers. They've always bought him a range of clothes up to now - dresses, skirts, trousers, shorts, pink, blue and every other colour - and he's picked what he wants to wear every day. He has no concept that garments are gendered and just likes to wear what he likes to wear. I think this is great.

But they haven't bought a range of uniform items, they've bought him pinafores and tights. AIBU to think they are making a statement at the expense of their DS's choice? Shorts and trousers are, for better or worse, much less gendered items than dresses.

He is a lovely boy and a testament to their parenting. Both parents are proudly unorthodox and brilliant, brave people. But AIBU to think they're kinda using their son as a flag to wave to the rest of the school community, rather than giving him the option of being low-key?

Nursery have previously expressed concerns that my friends were forcing their DS to wear dresses. They weren't. He chooses his clothes from a range. It may be that they've said 'which style of uniform do you want?' and he's made a choice but sadly there is a huge context to gender and clothing that he isn't aware of, so it isn't a genuine choice?

AIB horrible and judgemental? I love that this kid can be who he wants to be. I just worry that he's going to become an object of ridicule and derision on his first day.

I would t dream of sending any child of mine who didn’t allow girls to wear trousers so that wouldn’t be a problem to me and I don’t support private education anyway I leave that option to both the tory and labour front bench

Again it’s mumsnet parallel universe that no one in RL seems to have come across a primary aged boy in a dress. Everyone in RL knows that this would cause him to be teased, stand out and possibly bullied and no parent with sense would do this.

Gosh MadMaryok and I get the messy eater argument but around here pinafores have all but but the dust as most girls wear shorts or trousers.

well we agree on at least one point then Seasaw though I would probably extend it to not sending my DD to a school which had uniform items that half the population of school deem beneath their gender....

This narrows the choice substantially...

You are dreaming if you think 16 year old boys wouldn't laugh or tease another 16 year old boy who decided to come to school in a dress.

@M3lon how the fuck is a pinafore dress hard to piss in???
Don't want to be crude but surely you just lift it up?

Oh I think it would happen...I'd just like the parents of said 16 yo bullies to admit their fault in bringing up boys who would do this....

cricket...well I agree...it wasn't me that said pinafores would be just awful for boys because they would have to hold them up while pissing.

I was just pointing out they are no easier on girls...

Oh I think it would happen...I'd just like the parents of said 16 yo bullies to admit their fault in bringing up boys who would do this....

Wow, don't know any teenage boys do you? Seriously, the vast majority would be thinking wtf? Nothing to do with their upbringing.

where abouts is this? Brighton, Hebden Bridge, Stokes Croft, some parts of london etc... yeah fine

Of course a pinafore is hard to piss in. Even holding it up it would be coming down.

Sexism around clothing choices is bad. However, the people to start changing attitudes are adult men, who know what the reaction will be if they wear traditionally female clothes. 4yos don't. If men wear skirts, dresses etc and continue to identify as male then little boys will also end up with a free choice of clothes.

Yes absolutely. Or even children who know what the reaction is going to be. Depending on how savvy the child is, if they actually asked for pinafores I'd probably get them some at half term say. Not send them in on day 1 as default when the child has no idea that they will stand out.

I was at school when girls first started to wear trousers as uniform at my school. This was in the 80s, so trousers for women was very mainstream by then. The girls were saying "well mum wears trousers so why not me", it didn't come out of nowhere.

I do think in the current climate the child could end up seeing himself as trans. People see themselves as trans when their self image doesn't match their actual sex. At 4, a child's self image is still forming. A barrage of subtle and less subtle "perhaps you're a girl" from school culture and they might just build that into their self image. I've seen it happen in real life like that.

Although we could argue boys should sot down to wee to accomodate the pinafore. Would that also be fine?

Lol - it’s not bullying - 16 year olds WANT to fit in and look the same. Ds2 has met up with school friends at the cinema today and refused to wear shorts because his legs aren’t hairy enough.

He’s not bullied - he’s just 16.

I admire their principles and agree that biological sex and how we wear fabric really have nothing to do with each other. My boy has long hair.

That said, despite agreeing in principle I wouldn’t send my son to School in a dress and would actively steer away from it. I just think there are likely to be unintended consequences for him.

Sexism around clothing choices is bad. However, the people to start changing attitudes are adult men, who know what the reaction will be if they wear traditionally female clothes. 4yos don't. If men wear skirts, dresses etc and continue to identify as male then little boys will also end up with a free choice of clothes.

I agree with this completely.

This child is going to be set aside from day one though and it doesn't sound as though it's really been his choice. Shorts and trousers are much less gendered.

I dont think all 16 year olds 'just want to fit in' I certainly knew many who didnt and neither did I.

Surely its up to the child? If the child chose the pinifore and wants to wear it to school then they should.
I dont know why people are being so critical of the parents here when they havent actually forced anything on their child they just havent said 'no' for stupid reasons (ie skirts are only for girls)

Yes, poor kid. I feel for him. I wonder if his parents have fully grasped the implications of being on the autistic spectrum. He will be struggling so much all the time trying to understand other people's reactions. People on the spectrum can't do that intuitively, they are always looking for rules that other people are following and it's incredibly difficult to do that for lots of our irrational behaviour. It's hard to read facial expressions, body language and tone of voice, and hard to recognise their own emotions until they're almost overwhelming. Then there are the sensory issues. A primary school classroom can be a very noisy place. You can see how social interaction starts to become an ordeal.

To put a kid facing these problems in the position of standing out for another, easily avoidable reason as well is frankly cruel.

(My daughter is on the spectrum and high-functioning. I look back at her primary school days and shudder at the thought of how much worse they would have been if I'd done something like this.)

I dont think all 16 year olds 'just want to fit in' I certainly knew many who didnt and neither did I.

Depends on the school and the social group the child is in. It also depends on what form the not-fitting-in takes. If a teenager in a very religious school/area is gay or gender nonconforming, it would take enormous strength of character to express that openly when it might lead to physical attacks as well as namecalling and social isolation.

My other worry about this child would be his feeling he isn’t good enough as a boy so he needs to dress as an old fashioned girl in pinafores.

Baffling really.

The ops friends need to be careful that the ds isn't over heard by a teacher that the reason why he is in a dress is because his parents didn't give him a choice

The parents could be considered as cruel and could be considered controlling.

I don't hold out much hope for ds with parents like these.

Op have you broached your concerns with the parents. There must be someone who is looking after him

Thought I'd add a pic of a girl wearing a pinafore because I don't recognise the description of something differently cult to run around in. (It's not a pencil skirt)

I wore a pinafore very like that back in the mid 60s. Mine had a zip down the front, IIRC. Never had any difficulty running around in it.

Zip fronted pinafores are perfectly practical for little kids - easier than skirts I'd have said.

I think school uniform ought to be shorts or trousers for boys and girls and therefore it's gender neutral either way and far more practical for everyone to be fully involved in all activities at school.

Some parents will find a way to make their children unique even with a gender neutral plain outfit redcar

"Gender neutral" shouldn't be about restricting choice and saying that children (girls and boys) can't wear dresses or skirts. It should be about offering the full choice of clothing to everyone and allowing children the choice. It is not (or at least it shouldn't be) used to say that everyone is able to wear the traditional "boys" clothes but no-one can wear the traditional "girls" clothes. Why? Because they are somewhat lesser than the boys clothes because they are 'girls clothes'? My dd choses to wear trousers, but I fully echo the comment above that a pinafore dress isn't restrictive and doesn't impede movement.