To think chivalry is dead?

[CrispyBanger]

Got the train home today from London at rush hour. It was packed, not a spare seat to be had. At the front of the train there are always a few unreserved seats, including 3 sets of priority seating and 2 tables. I sat in a priority seat. Of the other priority seats, 3 were taken by men with a further 7 men in the table seats.

Obviously pregnant lady (with a baby on board badge for extra measure) got on and stood in the aisle as it was so packed. I looked around expecting someone i.e. a man to offer their seat but no one did. I stood up and she took my seat.

Now, obviously there's a slim chance that the other people in the priority seating had non-visible seating needs but it's unlikely they all did. Am I showing my age or is it no longer the done thing to offer a seat to the elderly/pregnant ladies etc?

Incidentally, when I stood in the aisle a man sat at the table offered me his seat . So he didn't feel like he should offer it to a heavily pregnant lady but he did to a an obviously non pregnant lady?

Karting sound fun! It should be competitive I guess and dh would probably say to any woman who beat him that she’d had an advantage too but I think crucially he’d say it jokingly and knowing full well it was unsure and in fact not feeling at all bad about being beaten by a woman. So there’s no denying the conditioning is still there. All I can do is try to diminish it further with my children.

Enjoy karting but be prepared for some very competitive women too.
I’m off on holiday now. It’s been an interesting and very civil discussion, thanks. Vashna, I’ve disagreed with you all the way through but I’ve enjoyed ‘talking’ to you.

hooooowl

As it happens, I'm going karting this afternoon - with men and women. I just know the men will be overly competitive and most of them convinced they were the undiscovered Lewis Hamilton. I'm pretty damn sure they didn't think that as a baby, but it's been drilled into them by society that successful men can drive well, very well, and to feel inferior if they can't

It is more than conditioning. Sport and competitiveness is a proxy for combat. In all societies and in the animal world - competitiveness (in animals normally directed into male to male fighting) is to demonstrate to each other (and observing females) who has more testosterone, who is stronger, fitter - more capable.

If your wives were not there - your testosterone levels would actually be lower. If there is just one nubile / attractive female present, the men will take more risks. This is why far more young men are killed in dangerous pursits than women.

Francine - I must say, I love your turn of phrase. I’m not even going to try and deny the points in your post really. DH is currently car racing and this is just one of his various “willy waving” activities. I make no bones about this and it’s precisely why I don’t go and spectate. Over my dead body, I can’t be doing with it.

High heels. I've heard some women say some women wear them for themselves, it's not for men. I am sure they believe it too. To feel taller? To accentuate their calf? why do they feel a need to? Even if it's to fit in with other women, that's ultimately driven by a need to appeal to men

Fashion throughout the ages can easily be explained in terms of biology and demonstration of status in a dominance hierarchy. In animals - this can be size of claws, colourful plumage or antlers. These are signals saying "Look at me! I am so healthy and strong that I can divert ample nutritional resources to this seemingly unnecessary outward display"

In humans archaeological evidence clearly pinpoints when a society profressed to the point of having adornments and jewellery. Any seemingly "frivolous" fashion is a way of saying - look I have got enough that I don't need to worry about survival. High heels are saying "I am healthy and wealthy enough that I get to wear these completely impractical things on my feet"

Vashna
DH is currently car racing and this is just one of his various “willy waving” activities. I make no bones about this and it’s precisely why I don’t go and spectate. Over my dead body, I can’t be doing with it

Unfortunately for you, Vashna his testosterone will be measurably higher if there other women there (between their late teens to late forties). The presence of postmenopausal women at male sporting events has no impact on their testosterone levels and concomitant risk taking behaviour.

Let's talk about sex, baby (sing it)
Let's talk about you and me (sing it, sing it)
Let's talk about all the good things
And the bad things that may be

And sometimes, Torn, women wear high heels because it's impossible to find an alternative on the high street. I can't walk in high heels, and I'm really limited in the range of styles I can buy. Likewise when I'm buying for DD, who's grown out of the girls' ranges now, I'm glad she doesn't want any sandals this summer, because I can't find any without heels.

PerfectlySymmetricalButtocks
..because I can't find any without heels...
Is that true Buttocks?
Really?

I just Googled "Girls' Sandals without heels"

Guess what? It did not come up with "No entries found for that search"

women wear high heels because it's impossible to find an alternative on the high street.

Impossible. Nothing at all to do with your personal preferences and choices. It is all the "fault" of the "high street".

Francine I said she's grown out of the girls' ranges.

I don't wear high heels because I can't walk in them. I wear trainers in summer, Doc Martens in winter. I already stated that I can't walk in high heels. So nothing to do with my personal preferences.

Can you imagine me in an office in the shoes I end up wearing?

Buttocks
I said she's grown out of the girls' ranges
Tell me how old she is and I will see what you said earlier ("I'm glad she doesn't want any sandals this summer, because I can't find any without heels) is the same for me.

"I wear trainers in summer, Doc Martens in winter"
So your own statement proves what you said earlier, "women wear high heels because it's impossible to find an alternative on the high street" can not be true. You found an alternative.

"Can you imagine me in an office in the shoes I end up wearing?"
So here you seem to be making a slightly different point. Am correct in thinking you believe you couldn't ever imagine working in an office because you also believe that high heels are either mandatory or the only available option to buy.

Again, is that true Buttocks? Really?

"Can you imagine me in an office in the shoes I end up wearing?"

Yes. Because I wear those in my office.

But it's also perfectly possible to find smart flat shoes, I have a pair for interviews. I just choose not to wear them every day.

I'm saying my only alternative seems to be trainers or Doc Martens, which wouldn't be suitable for an office.

DD's 10, she's a size 5 and I can't find girls' shoes over a size 4. We buy her school shoes from Asda, because it's the only shop that stocks them in a 5. Her winter boots last year had a low-ish heel, because I couldn't find anything else.

And buttocks, I don't why you can't find sandles without heels, there's loads!

@PerfectlySymmetricalButtocks

Marks & Spencer do school shoes in a size 5.

I'm saying my only alternative seems to be trainers or Doc Martens, which wouldn't be suitable for an office.

That's ridiculous. I work in an office. Sometimes I wear heels, sometimes I don't. There's lots of other options available. Loads of women in my office don't wear heels.

Perfectly - there’s loads of flat sandals for girls. My DD is also 10 and a size 4 with narrow feet but I got her these ones just yesterday.

If male physiology is to be taken into account when demanding men stand up to allow women to take a seat (pregnancy aside) then surely manspreading should be excused .

It’s not always the case that heels are less comfortable than flats. What about a wedge sandal Perfectly? Also, it is true that say, Jimmy Choos are made for standing in, definitely not walking, but there’s a designer Sam Edelman who makes heels you could walk in all day. They don’t look comfortable, but they are. Just try shoes on.

These ones for instance look killer for the feet, but they are actually super comfortable.

You're the one who said women wore less comfortable shoes Vashna.

I don't want my growing daughter's calf muscles shortened, thanks Vashna.

Yes I agree that can be a problem Perfectly. My DD who is 13 doesn’t wear heels. There are millions of flats though.

Vashna how did your H do at his motor racing event? Is he strutting and swaggering or is he irritable and morose?

He’s always delighted after such events Francine. I don’t mind the break either Usually Portugal or Belgium, about 15 of them go. They take it very seriously. Two became semi-pro in their 40s. No cars written off on this occasion.