To think chivalry is dead?

[CrispyBanger]

Got the train home today from London at rush hour. It was packed, not a spare seat to be had. At the front of the train there are always a few unreserved seats, including 3 sets of priority seating and 2 tables. I sat in a priority seat. Of the other priority seats, 3 were taken by men with a further 7 men in the table seats.

Obviously pregnant lady (with a baby on board badge for extra measure) got on and stood in the aisle as it was so packed. I looked around expecting someone i.e. a man to offer their seat but no one did. I stood up and she took my seat.

Now, obviously there's a slim chance that the other people in the priority seating had non-visible seating needs but it's unlikely they all did. Am I showing my age or is it no longer the done thing to offer a seat to the elderly/pregnant ladies etc?

Incidentally, when I stood in the aisle a man sat at the table offered me his seat . So he didn't feel like he should offer it to a heavily pregnant lady but he did to a an obviously non pregnant lady?

I do think it’s a very common habit for most couples though.
No doubt you’ll tell me it not

Well of course it's not. So... husband walks on outer side of pavement to protect wife (from what?), husband helps wife out of car because she wears stupid shoes...

Husband always drives if he's with wife in car, even though she happily drives alone, because...? I can't see any justification for that one (aside from old-fashioned male ego).

Are you honestly not seeing how silly this is?

Where have all the good men gone?And where are all the gods? Where's the streetwise Hercules to fight the rising odds? Isn't there a white knight upon a fiery steed? Late at night I toss and I turn. And I dream of what I need.

Francine’s been at it all night

I have to say, and please don’t take this the wrong way, that this kind of thing is only an issue on MN.

I also wonder, and please feel free not to answer, where do people actually live on here and if you are non UK residents.

We have lived in various places and nobody has ever considered us unusual, as far as I know. If I think of DH among his friends and the general DHs of my friends / neighbours, they are all much of a muchness, as am I.

Husband always drives if he's with wife in car, even though she happily drives alone, because...? I can't see any justification for that one (aside from old-fashioned male ego)

My dad can't drive - never learned. My mum passed her test in her early 20s. They're now in their 70s and UK residents. My mum is still the sole car driver. That is a little unusual but to think the man usually drives when the woman is present, even though she can drive - seriously weird.

I often pick dp up from the station. The car park is full of cars with women sitting in the passenger seat, having driven there themselves but swapping over so the man can drive home.

But that’s the Home Counties for you!

I have to say, and please don’t take this the wrong way, that this kind of thing is only an issue on MN.

You're right, it's not an issue in rl for me. Dh and I share driving and treat each other equally respectfully with no need for 'chivalry'. No issue at all!

I also wonder, and please feel free not to answer, where do people actually live on here and if you are non UK residents.

I currently live in NW England, but have mostly lived in London and the Home Counties. Have not lived abroad (except as a student), but am a linguist and have worked with lots of people from various European countries. Haven't noticed an insistence on chivalry among them either.

King, I think “insistence on chivalry” is going a bit far and I never meant to imply that. It’s hardly “pistols at dawn,” just general habits.

I can well imagine the situation Bertrand describes above. I think the truth must be that many men feel embarrassed being driven about by women. If you’re out and about driving today, I bet if you did a quick 2 minute tally of couples / families in passing in cars, it would be the DH driving in 9 out of 10 cases. I really don’t think this is just me!

I have to say, and please don’t take this the wrong way, that this kind of thing is only an issue on MN.

It's not an issue in to for me, because I don't know anyone where the man always opens doors for women, always drives the woman about etc. I don't know any women who would throw a strop because their dh took a seat, and then get off the train and get an uber. The women I know, would just tell their husband they wanted to sit down, or not mind standing.

I live in the UK. I have also lived in Florida, northern Ireland and Cyprus.

I think the truth must be that many men feel embarrassed being driven about by women

And you don't see the issue with a man thinking like that? You can't believe a man completely respects women and thinks of them as equals AND is embarssed to be driven around by one.

I don't think men are embarassed about being driven, I just think more like driving (not all, obviously). Having sat on a train for hours it can feel good to have a little control back!

Now before anybody starts - yes, I think 'control' is another aspect of male driving (possibly for women too). A lot of people just feel better behind the wheel than being a passenger. I would hazard a guess this is more common in men, but have no evidence to support that.

Before I type this - I already know it's going to get awfully messy, but I'll say it anyway:

There's an aspect of chivalry that's flirtacious. I don't mean that in some overtly and over familiar way, and it's not always about a good looking woman etc, but there is something in most male conditioning (and very probably female conditioning too) that likes to please the opposite sex. It's a good feeling.

I think for men, chivalry is one of the subconscious (maybe conscious) ways to do something simple that can have a positive effect - ideally for all involved.

Whether that's a good thing or not is another matter, but I do think it's a factor. There is something in our psyche that generally wants to be liked by the opposite sex, and we're told (possibly wrongly) that chivalry is a nice thing.
I think there are probably female equivalents of this - behaviours that are inherently sexist, but with good intent and give us a good feeling when the opposite sex enjoy our efforts.

It’s not an issue for me because I’ve never seen it before.
FWIW, I live in Trafford, an urban but affluent part of Cheshire. A large proportion of my neighbours speak with Surrey accents Before this we lived in actual leafy Surrey, before that, Herts and before that, London. We have also lived in the US for 1yr.

Mind you, in the interest of honesty, I did once see a car pull up at St Albans station and the man got out the driver seat and his wife walked from passenger seat to driver seat to drive home. DH and I burst out laughing at the ridiculousness of it but as we were in our 20s at that time and they looked early 50s, we put it down to outdated sexism. We would have been stunned to see a couple our age or younger do it, even in St Albans

Torn, apologies I think I’ve been calling you TomFromTheInside, as in “at her majesty’s pleasure”. My eyesight must be going.

I think you make some great points and congratulations on not being accused of mansplaining yet . But yes, of course, men behave differently towards other men than towards women and vice versa. This is human nature and I can’t envisage a time when behaviour will be neutral in this respect.

This happens ALL the time at train stations.
If you ever park up or wait for someone at a station, it's really common for the driver to get out and swap seats with the passenger who will drive home. Usually the driver is male.

You will also find this is common on long journeys where the man will drive most if not all of the way. That's not to say women never do it, but it's commonplace for men to do so.

@Torn

Ok, firstly I get the driving=control thing because I certainly feel more in control of the car when I’m driving. Dh isn’t at all a bad driver but I definitely feel safer when I’m driving probably because it’s within my control. So I think there is a control aspect but I’d argue it’s felt by both sexes.

As for your comment about pleading the opposite sex, I get this too and I’ve seen it although it’s frustrating. I think the equivalent is when young couples move in and the woman somehow, regardless of how successful and intelligent she is, starts running around ‘keeping nice house’ for her partner. But one look at the Relationships board on here will show you plenty of reasons why it’s bad news. Lots of women start off doing this seeing it as cute or flirtatious and end up with 3 children, a f/t job and zero help by which time they’re on their knees. Of course, some men will enjoy this but then step up when children arrive or the woman will become a sahm meaning she’s not so overwhelmed but I still think it’s a bad idea and the equivalent of what you are saying. I never did it but luckily dh never expected it as his mother never did it either. Good job as I still find motherhood overwhelming so goodness knows how I’d have coped if I was also expected to be a domestic goddess.

This is human nature and I can’t envisage a time when behaviour will be neutral in this respect.

When I first joined MN, this subject was one of my first posts, and all hell broke loose. I was accused of all sorts. Still wrangles with me actually.

We cannot deny that (so far) humans seems to have been predisposed to want to attract members of the opposite sex (predominantly). It doesn't mean everybody's out looking for a partner, or anything remotely as blatant as that, but some of our behaviours are influenced by this (many subconsciously).

I'm going to get hammered for this too:

High heels. I've heard some women say some women wear them for themselves, it's not for men. I am sure they believe it too. To feel taller? To accentuate their calf? why do they feel a need to? Even if it's to fit in with other women, that's ultimately driven by a need to appeal to men.

But this is a whole other subject. The behaviours from men and women that are influenced by the opposite sex are inherently sexist because we different between sexes and adapt behaviour accordingly.
But 'sexism' is usually interpreted as a negative thing (because mostly it is), but it can also be as simple as differentiation / discrimination. Not negative or positive behaviours just different ones.

I don't think we will ever reach a day when men and women's behaviour is entirely devoid of this.

But we should be changing things. We shouldn’t be encouraging either our sons or daughters to engage in conditioned behaviour like this. Teach them respect and courtesy which means holding doors for all and giving up seats to those in need. Teach them to treat any future partners with respect but don’t allow your sons to think that driving or opening the car door will make her happy or your daughters to think that wearing high heels or ironing his shirts will make him happy. Because we’re doing them no favours to do so.

My post is actually a x post with you there, Torn despite now looking like a reply

There is something in our psyche
You should read "How the Mind Works" by Steven Pinker. The chapter on sex differences is just mind blowing. It might sound obvious when you think about it but to have e.g. attraction, jealously, pair bonding, sex drive, rates of infidelity, and even fashion and the beauty industry explained through the the lens of genetics and evolution is incredibly enlightening.

For example, the display of what might be described as "chivalry" in the traditional sense is motivated not only by a need to engender positive feelings in males and females as you say TornFromTheInside... It's a good feeling. I think for men, chivalry is one of the subconscious (maybe conscious) ways to do something simple that can have a positive effect - ideally for all involved

But also it is a way males demonstrate and publicly display their position in a dominance hierarchy (I.e. showing other men where they are in the pecking order).

Just consider the words we associate with "chivalrous"; polite, well-bred, honourable, decent, classy, gentlemanly, noble, princely

A man who makes a public display of saying "let me open that door for you" is also reminding himself that he sees himself "above" other men that might be described as the opposites of the above ill-bred, low-class, common, chavvy, nasty, rude, shabby and shoddy.

So Vashna's husband insisting on opening the car door for her and always driving will be exactly the same behaviour that causes him to "mention in passing" to his banker colleagues which English public school he attended, which regiment he served in. He will stretch his arm in just the right way so that others get just enough of a glimpse of his watch. He will also let it be known that Vashna is a SAHM - she doesn't need to work. That's his role - to provide and protect. While he might say his choice of car is a practical one - I will bet my mortgage it also sends a signal to his own father, his brother(s), the neighbours about his status. He wants to show other men and women what a good catch he is. So watch out, Vashna. You also have competition!

So chivalry - just the modern equivalent of willy-waving and demonstrating status differences.

@lookingforspace Great post!

I think it's dangerous for both sexes, because we're conditioned to believe certain behaviours will please the opposite sex, and therefore certain behaviours are expected of us.

We should be 'manly' or 'feminine', we should be strong or caring etc...

Before you know it, you have men and women going down prescribed paths because they are decent people, want to please others, and end up going with the flow.

As it happens, I'm going karting this afternoon - with men and women. I just know the men will be overly competitive and most of them convinced they were the undiscovered Lewis Hamilton. I'm pretty damn sure they didn't think that as a baby, but it's been drilled into them by society that successful men can drive well, very well, and to feel inferior if they can't. And to be beaten by a woman will result in 'power to weight ratio' discussions to explain why women were at an advantage.

It's quite bloody sad actually. Not asking you to feel sorry for men, just demonstrating how messed up they are about what's expected of them. Both sexes seem pretty messed up to me.

Just to add that I don’t think we should conflate wanting to look attractive to the opposite sex with wanting to please them.

I would never try and tell my children that the opposite sex would find them just as attractive without them bothering to shower and groom. And my dh also loves me in heels. But we can separate sex and sexual attraction from antiquated desirable traits like chivalry and housewife fussing.

I would not find chivalrous acts such as opening the car door attractive and if it happened on a first date it would send me alarm bells as to what other sexist views that man held. From a mans POV, I’m sure many would quite enjoy the equivalent fussing for a short while (there you go, I’m admitting a difference) but I don’t think young me these days see it as something that adds to the attractiveness of a woman and I know quite a few who would find it strange and boring after a while.

DM and stepdad did this, but only because stepdad was an abusive cunt, to many people in many different ways. DM's 73, stepdad would be 77.

*Just consider the words we associate with "chivalrous"; polite, well-bred, honourable, decent, classy, gentlemanly, noble, princely

A man who makes a public display of saying "let me open that door for you" is also reminding himself that he sees himself "above" other men that might be described as the opposites of the above ill-bred, low-class, common, chavvy, nasty, rude, shabby and shoddy.*

Absolutely agree.
One point though, it's not always a conscious need to do assert this. It can sometimes be the opposite. A quite submissive man can also feel a need to do this. I think it's more a need to feel validated.

And men and women are deeply conditioned to notice status difference. Data from OLD ads provides a treasure trove of insights into the 21st psyche of both men and women. Guess what? Female humans will find a tall, wealthy, gentlemanly man more attractive - in exactly the same way as a female lobster is attracted to a male lobster with bigger claws.

We're all animals! Animals I tell you !!

“But we should be changing things. We shouldn’t be encouraging either our sons or daughters to engage in conditioned behaviour like this”

How much is conditioned though Looking, as opposed to how much is innate? Even if we are all purely “conditioned,” where does this come from and why has conditioning taken this form in particular?

I’m not sure it’s possible to decree how people, whether male or female, gay or straight should relate to each other. It just happens according to different personalities.