To think chivalry is dead?

[CrispyBanger]

Got the train home today from London at rush hour. It was packed, not a spare seat to be had. At the front of the train there are always a few unreserved seats, including 3 sets of priority seating and 2 tables. I sat in a priority seat. Of the other priority seats, 3 were taken by men with a further 7 men in the table seats.

Obviously pregnant lady (with a baby on board badge for extra measure) got on and stood in the aisle as it was so packed. I looked around expecting someone i.e. a man to offer their seat but no one did. I stood up and she took my seat.

Now, obviously there's a slim chance that the other people in the priority seating had non-visible seating needs but it's unlikely they all did. Am I showing my age or is it no longer the done thing to offer a seat to the elderly/pregnant ladies etc?

Incidentally, when I stood in the aisle a man sat at the table offered me his seat . So he didn't feel like he should offer it to a heavily pregnant lady but he did to a an obviously non pregnant lady?

She also says that there is nothing attractive about a man more than excellent manners and politeness.

This is the problem!!! Of course manners are attractive but in both men and women, equally. The hideous, sexist part is thinking that chivalry is attractive in a man whereas modesty and decorum are what women should aim for.

It’s not that I don’t understand what you’re saying, Looking, I’m just not at all convinced that the alternative “world vision” you propose would actually be preferable or realistic. There more similarities between men and women than differences, but nevertheless, some differences do exist on a general level, broadly speaking. You mention women in the frontline - it’s easy to say that, another thing to experience the reality. I think less 1% of women are marines - is this “not right”? I’ve been a SAHM for years - sometimes I wonder if I’m “not right” and perpetrating sexist stereotypes to our children and MN (I suspect you would tell me I am), but I also doubt I would have been happier with the alternative. So I guess what I’m saying is, what “right” and “not right” is subjective.

I’m not saying it’s nit right that you’ve SAH, not at all. I was pointing out that it’s sexist, of men, women and society in general, to see that as a more valid option for a woman than a man. If you and your dh would be just as happy to see a son SAH as a daughter then that’s fine. It’s nit the SAH that’s the issue, it the assumption that it’s what women do.
Likewise, the assumption that swearing is inappropriate in company but acceptable and accepted for a group of men in private but not a group of women in private.

I’m not getting at you, I see it at work too. I hear older teachers tell young women to sit up straight When boys are allowed to lounge. I hear parents tell their girls to close their legs when sitting even if the girl is wearing trousers. Nobody ever says this to young boys.

I read an article a few years ago asking parents who had a boy and a girl, if they could choose and whilst the other would be happy and solvent, only one of their children could go to university and have the high flying career, which child would they choose. They overwhelmingly chose their sons. So society has a long way to go.

Sorry, it’s less than 1% if marines are women (I think)? Not 1% of women are marines!

DH and I definitely don’t think our son should have any more focus or investment when it comes to education. If our girls want high-flying careers, we would support them all the way. Equally, if they decide they want to stay home after they have children and they have a DH who is happy to support that, then that’s equally a valid choice.

Also, what people find attractive is a personal thing. I’m attracted to some certain behaviours in men - it’s by no means the only thing I’m attracted to, but there it is. I do know I’m not the only one! Some women respond to other characteristics, other women are bisexual or gay. Nobody can dictate on what we should /shouldn’t be attracted to, surely?

Just to add, of all the forces, The Marines are the least welcoming towards woman.

I don’t think the men did anything wrong honestly. On trains, ‘priority’ seats aren’t indicated as clearly as they would be on other modes of transportation- priority seats look like normal seats so maybe the other passengers were unaware and just sat down in the first seats they saw. You said it was a very packed train during peak time after all. I imagine people would sit down anywhere they could.

The other passengers may not have noticed the woman was pregnant. Believe it or not, as a frequent train traveler I don’t actually evaluate other passengers and I wouldn’t notice a pregnant woman myself, I’d probably be looking out of the window, on my phone, on my laptop, talking to my friend etc. Especially the more towards the middle of the carriage, passengers getting on/off are basically irrelevant. If it notice them, it would probably be a cursory glance at their face rather than body. Especially if there’s many people standing up in the vestibule.

I think if someone wants your seat, they should just ask really. If I’m travelling on quite a long journey (over 45 minutes) I’d want to sit down, especially if I reserved my seat. I’m not going to particularly offer it out left, right and centre when I would like to sit down myself, however if someone asks then that’s a different story.

I don’t really think the gender of the passengers is relevant in 2018. I think you’re showing your age a bit. It’s nice when men open doors for you or let you go first etc, but I certainly don’t expect it from them. As an independent adult I can get myself from place A to B comfortably on my own accord and don’t need to rely on men being nice.

Aaah. Boarding school and military. 'Nuff said. I can't help feeling that underneath all this chivalry usually lies a deep-seated, perhaps well-hidden (perhaps not even admitted to themselves) contempt for women. Or a belief that we really are inferior to them. I think that certain institutions are probably riddled with these attitudes, even if they are forced to present a more politically correct facade, and that chivalry is often used as a more acceptable veneer for this. NAMALT, obviously.

Right and not right may be subjective.

Sexism, isn't subjective. If you see happy with the way things are, great. But let's not pretend is doesn't come from sexist thinking. Not every woman has to battle every women's issue. We all live our own lives and compromise on somethings.

The issue is pretending manners should be something men have to do. The issue is women acting like they need a guardian/protector in their DP. We should all have manners. Including women.

My brothers were all in the forces. One a Royal Marine. They are not known for being the pinnacle of equality.

Yes, both my brother and BIL are/were forces. Both their wives and family life fell into a very traditional pattern. My SIL told me that the marriages where the wife tried to maintain a full time professional career would inevitably be the ones to fail.

I really wish chivalry WAS dead...unfortunately double standards for men and women persist.

Being careful considerate and polite to each other is lovely...having two sets of rules on politeness one for each gender is sexist bullshit.

If I get to a door first I hold it open whether the colleague following is male or female, if they get there first they can hold the door for me whether or not they are male or female. If they say 'ladies first' they will then receive a patient explanation of the fact that while 'ladies' is still used as a derogatory term for men I will not accept it being used to describe me. As you can imagine, this always goes down well without fail.....

I got a train the other day, it was packed and lots of people who'd just come from Wimbledon were sat in the priority seating area. Young college students, mostly. And elderly lady was also sat there and after 3 stops where people were glancing at my obvious bump the elderly lady offered me her seat. Obviously I declined but the point is, it seems to be the older generation that remembers this.

DaphneduWarrior

I don’t have a partner or a husband. The other day I drove home and had to sleep in the car because there was no man to open the door for me

Driving? DRIVING???
What the heck were you doing driving anyway??? You know you really wouldn't get yourself into such a pickle or be single if you stuck to what you are designed for e.g. embroidery and crochet.

Always remember girls, the most complicated part of the car you should be worrying about is how to open the vanity mirror on the sun visor.

You certainly should NOT be going anywhere near the technical jiggery pokery on the man's driver's side of the car.

BertrandRussell
Actually, if we're going to an event and I'm in posh frock and shoes and stuff...

Call yourself a feminismist?
I had always imagined you only owned dungarees and Doc Martens.

You've let me down, BertrandRussell.
You've let femininism down.

You've let yourself down.

ladies is still used as a derogatory term for men. What??

Any woman who says 'posh frock' goes up in my estimation.
Except for Bertrand. She was already up there!

ladies is still used as a derogatory term for men. What??

It can be sometimes - usually amongst men. It's usually said in jocular fashion, rather than a genuinely derogatory manner.
Still, there's a subtle implication that to be called a lady when you're a man is slightly insulting.
I guess if women were being mean to another woman and said 'she's a bit of a bloke' - the same insult might be inferred.

If the car is so difficult to get into in any shoes how does he manage?
Ah he holds the door open with his testicle while he manoeuvres, right?

StealthPolarBear - I know you think I’m a loon, but If you met us I like to think you might be surprised. I don’t wish to be contentious again on this thread , but you must have noticed that it’s more difficult to get in and out of cars in heels and a dress than otherwise without exposing yourself? Also is this kind of thing ever really thought about in real life?

You said the car was difficult to get into in any shoes. This presumably includes the ones your oh wears

May be the men worry they got it wrong, the woman wasn't pregnant. Now that's awkward.

Yes Stealth, but he’s a man isn’t he. There you go.

And that's the bit I can't get my head round. There's plenty dh can do that I can't (running fast, lifting heavy stuff, getting he dc to listen to him) but everyday stuff loke standing up, walking, getting in and out of cars, driving, earning money and making decisions I am equally capable and I'd hate the thought he assumed I wasn't. That I was in some way incompetent and needed looking after. If we're chased by zombies I will be happy for him to employ his superior strength and skill (he did tae kwon do, I played badminton) and I'll cook the meat he brings home and not ask too many questions about what animal it might be. Until the apocalypse though we're pretty even.

Vashna, I’m sure you and your DH and nice people. I took issue with your earlier suggestion that behaviour such as your husband’s is what determines whether a man has manners or not. I fundamentally disagree.

And yes, I know you didn’t direct it at me but the sort of thing that would (pleasantly) surprise me would be if you confirmed that you both took turns to drive when going out for the day etc as my experience is that men like your husband find it strange to be in the passenger seat whilst their wife drives unless they’ve been drinking.