To think chivalry is dead?

[CrispyBanger]

Got the train home today from London at rush hour. It was packed, not a spare seat to be had. At the front of the train there are always a few unreserved seats, including 3 sets of priority seating and 2 tables. I sat in a priority seat. Of the other priority seats, 3 were taken by men with a further 7 men in the table seats.

Obviously pregnant lady (with a baby on board badge for extra measure) got on and stood in the aisle as it was so packed. I looked around expecting someone i.e. a man to offer their seat but no one did. I stood up and she took my seat.

Now, obviously there's a slim chance that the other people in the priority seating had non-visible seating needs but it's unlikely they all did. Am I showing my age or is it no longer the done thing to offer a seat to the elderly/pregnant ladies etc?

Incidentally, when I stood in the aisle a man sat at the table offered me his seat . So he didn't feel like he should offer it to a heavily pregnant lady but he did to a an obviously non pregnant lady?

yes Daisies I am aware of that...

are you saying that a woman is not a person now? or what?

I don’t have a partner or a husband. The other day I drove home and had to sleep in the car because there was no man to open the door for me

It’s just if I’m with DH he’ll get the door for me generally. I think you’ll find most husbands would do this.

Nope, not any husbands I know. Genuine question, why would a man open the door of a car for a woman? I cant think of a single reason. I open a car door for my elderly FiL because he is frail and gets confused.

I'm not frail or confused, but I would be confused if DH opened a car door for me.

Actually, if we're going to an event and I'm in posh frock and shoes and stuff, the dp will open the car door for me. Because it's fun to play the game a couple of times a year. And because I need a discreet hand when I'm wearing ridiculous shoes.....

No what's she is saying is that why didn't you just say pregnant women instead of pregnant person

”Ah well done flowery you have outed me as dyslexic. Proud of yourself are you?”

My apologies. I’m afraid I’m a bit of a spelling/grammar pedant and I couldn’t bring myself to quote the incorrect word without the speech marks. That was wrong of me, I’m sorry.

”The logic of him, doing this for you because he loves, doesn't make sense. Because you would do it for each other.”

It’s not necessary for couples to show each other their love for one another in the exact same way.

“He does it because you are a woman. It's that simple. It comes from mysognistic thinking. That's not to say your dh is total sexist twat. But these things he does, does come from sexist thinking.”

The reasons it has historically been customary to do this come from sexist thinking in society, yes of course. The reasons my DH does it do not come from any sexist/misogynistic thinking on his part, and I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on what’s in my DH’s head and why he behaves as he does!

My apologies. I’m afraid I’m a bit of a spelling/grammar pedant and I couldn’t bring myself to quote the incorrect word without the speech marks. That was wrong of me, I’m sorry

I appreciate your apology. But for future reference, being a 'pedant is just a word people use as an excuse for being a twat and enjoying trying to humiliate people. Check the thread from yesterday, regarding people correcting spelling and grammar on social media. Look at what people say about the impact it has on people, what it achieves and what most people think about those that do it.

Next time, try and improve you point. Don't take the piss out of people who struggle, through no fault of your own.

Wow, that’s got to be the least gracious acceptance of an apology I’ve ever seen, ‘appreciating’ it and then accusing me of being a “twat” who “enjoys trying to humiliate people”.

I’m out, this is completely ridiculous now.

He does it because you are a woman. It's that simple. It comes from mysognistic thinking. That's not to say your dh is total sexist twat. But these things he does, does come from sexist thinking.

Chivalry is indeed sexist. It need not be misogynistic.
And even though it's sexist, it is often not done with negative intent, but quite the opposite.

I would say that in the grand scheme, chivalry is probably an indicator of a man who wants to do the right thing but hasn't fully thought about it very deeply, or struggles to overcome his childhood conditioning on this subject.

But we also still live in a world where not all women live in reasonably fair existence with men. For some, chivalry can be an assurance or gesture that some men value a woman and want to make them feel important. Having a door opened for you doesn't have to be a pathetic gesture suggesting you're incapable. For some women, they might never have seen a man 'serve' a woman before. There are plenty of cultures where women are still expected to walk behind a man.

Wow, that’s got to be the least gracious acceptance of an apology I’ve ever seen, ‘appreciating’ it and then accusing me of being a “twat” who “enjoys trying to humiliate people”.

Who said I had to be gracious? You apologised. I appreciate that you did. You don't get to dictate how I handle it.

Maybe you need to remember that if you are rude, people don't HAVE to accept your apology. Graciously or not. They can still appreciate the gesture, though. I am still entitled to my opinion on your behaviour towards me.

are you saying that a woman is not a person now? or what?

No, I’m saying that to be pregnant you have to be a woman. I thought that would have been obvious.

Vashna after he's helped you into the car how does he get in?

I think some people just need to stop making blanket statements about everything. As Tom says, some men are actually trying to be considerate. Also some women are secure enough in their relationship with men to not feel patronised by this kind of thing.

Some men are hideously sexist and have no manners whatsoever. If anything, men who are gents are likely to respect women more - as long as they’re not the type to make a song and dance about it.

As I said earlier, if in any doubt on this issue, go to Japan where it’s quite normal for men to push ahead of you in queues and no sense of “chivalry”. See how liberated it makes you feel. Japan is more rigidly sexist than Britain.

It will be a sad world when men can’t make gestures because of fear of being accused of being sexist. When I was on the tube platform the other day and it was super crowded and every train packed, who do you think is least likely to be able to get on the trains (apart from elderly)? Yes, it’s women with children and particularly pushchairs. I can’t count the times I’ve had men offer to carry a pushchair up the stairs in a station for me and I was always very grateful for that.

Stealth - I’m not sure what your question is - he will get the door for me and then go round and just get in the car himself . This is really not a big deal.

You don’t have to do everything the same as men to be equal to them.

Blanket statements such as

If anything, men who are gents are likely to respect women more - as long as they’re not the type to make a song and dance about it.

Are you aware of everyday sexism?

What do you want me to say Shortstuff?

Yes I am aware. I’ve travelled the world as a single woman.

I don't want you to say anything. That's not the point imof a discussion. You talk about the problem, being blanket statements. Then make blanket statements.

Everyday sexism isn't anything to do with travelling the world. It's to do with small things that most men and many women, don't realise is sexist.

I don't want you to say anything.

Sorry that was badly written. What I meant is I don't want you to say anything, what you say is up to you.

I felt like it came across as though I was saying I want you to not saying anything at all.

Interestingly whenever I see a woman playing the ‘chivalry’ card it is usually in the context of being cheeky fucker. The most common observation is the pushing to the front of queues. Any man who complains is called ‘ungentlemanly’ for calling her out.

I live in London and when it comes to public transport I am impressed as to how quick people (men and women) are to offer assistance to those who need it, be it offering up seats, carrying heavy bags or buggies up stairs and generally not being twats. Chivalry has nothing to do with it.

I understand that Short, but what you perceive as sexist is not what the next woman might do.

It’s the intent that matters. Being a particular kind of feminist, does not make you a “better person”, it just means that you see the world through that particular lens. I can understand my DH’s perspective and where he’s coming from. He was in a boys boarding school from a young age, he was in a sector of the military where the were no women and then in a banking related field also where there were few women. He’s not a bad person and he means well. I’m not British and while I understand the debate, I think it’s a red herring, because ultimately, an unpleasant sexist is just that, regardless of how he behaves.

I don't think your husband is a bad person. I don't think I am a better person for being a particular type of feminist. Not sure I am a particular type of feminist, in fact.

My point is that people should be polite to eachother. Regardless of sex and/or gender.

There should be no 'if men don't do this for women they are rude'. That's sexist.

And if women throw strops and because men don't do as they feel they should (which is what one poster said earlier) they need to grow up and stop acting like children.

Sexist behaviour is ingrained in us, because of the way society is. That doesn't mean he is an unpleasant person but it doesn't mean something isn't sexist.

@Vashna, the real crux of the issue is your belief, which you asserted earlier in the thread, that men who do not show chivalry towards women are some who less well mannered. That it’s somehow a shame that such behaviour is dying out. It is not. I am not in any way disappointed that my sons and daughter are growing up to see courtesy as the responsibility of them all; equally.

Nope, not any husbands I know. Genuine question, why would a man open the door of a car for a woman? I cant think of a single reason.

I do this for my wife. Open door, wait till she settles in her seat then walk round to driver's side. Why? Coz she likes it, and I like to please her. Of course it's a weirdy thing for me to do as a 'feminist ally' at first..but I tend to see it also as a gesture of love and caring. I don't mind but wouldn't express an opinion about other people.

She also says that there is nothing attractive about a man more than excellent manners and politeness.

I shouldn’t come on such a long thread without reading first, but aren’t you proof chivalry is still alive, OP?

Undoubtedly your husband’s experience both at boarding school then in the millitary has informed who he is. It just doesn’t make it right. Just like it’s not right to say men can fight on the front line but not women.

And it is sexism, unless men like your husband can honestly say hand on heart they’d be just as happy for there to be woman drinking whiskey and playing pool with them in the officers club or to say they’d be just as happy for their sons to choose to be stay at home dads whilst their wives worked as they would be their daughters whilst their husbands worked. Until we stop hearing young girls told to stop doing something or participating in something because it’s ‘unladylike’ Until none of this bothers men or women then we will always have casual sexism.