Remainer 'moral superiority'

[coffeeaddict]

I voted Remain but I dithered and I can see both sides of the argument. (Am I the only one?! Everyone else seems to be so polarised.)

What gets me, especially when I've read discussions on here, is all the very vociferous Remainers who talk as though they have a claim to the moral high ground.

I find the accusation that Brexiteers are 'racist' particularly weird. Europe is mostly white like us. How does race play a card? If anything, letting our borders open to all and every European (majority white) means necessarily less room for other people from different countries and therefore different races.

In fact, what is the EU? A band of rich, predominantly white countries banding together to be more powerful. Fine, this might be best for our trade and prosperity. It might be pragmatic. We might like feeling we could go and live in Spain one day. But that's not the same as being morally 'better'.

But a lot of Remainers behave as though they are inherently 'virtuous' and Brexit is inherently 'evil.'

I don't get it.

Yanbu I get very pissed off with some fellow remainers

It tends to be those of the left many who seem to think they are morally superior just because they put their tick next to Labour and the superiority has heightened becuase they have also voted Remain. I am quite sure I’ve even seen that argued in here that they are

What I find amusing are those who will claim they are socialist and passionate in support of the EU a very successful capitalist project if ever there was one

The Remain campaign fell down not because it accused leavers of being racist but because they mounted what was a fundamentally negative campaign about what we had to lose by leaving rather than what we were gaining from being in the EU (sounds like essentially the same thing but it was done in such a threatening manner that it got peoples' backs up). Unfortunately after years of talking down the EU, it was always going to be difficult to present membership of the EU as a positive thing.

Cameron was either careless or arrogant from the victory of the Scottish referendum to assume that people would vote for the status quo and inviting President Obama over only played into the hands of the leave campaign that we were being threatened by the 'elite' (which is lot of bollocks anyway as there were plenty of elites and establishment figures on both sides of the argument).

The only thing that bugs me about this thread is people boiling debates down to single issues such as 'racism' or so and so is condescending or whatever. The whole brexit debate is so complex and reducing it to insults either way is frustrating.

CantankerousCamel - exactly. The working classes - real workers - labourers, plumbers, removal men, van drivers, self stackers, hauliers, packers, - have been completely and utterly shafted.

And the City and the rich middle classes laughed at them and belittled them and called them thick racists for wanting to protect their jobs. Now we hear all the bankers and professionals saying "Oh but I / my DH will lose his job if we leave Europe" - So now you care.

sixoclock - absolutely right. It is hugely complex. I have fallen in to the "arguing a single issue trap". Sorry

Exactly, isitsixoclock. Reducing it to thick/racist/Leave and enlightened/educated/Remain helps no-one and shuts down meaningful debate.

Scoopofchaff - thank you. It's frustrating because whenever I raise the issue of post brexit legislation and what the agenda of the government is going to be towards protective legislation, it just gets ignored. Someone assure me that my fears are groundless and that our quality of life will not go down the pan after brexit.

I SAW and HEARD goodex‘friends’ of mine discussing how those who weren’t educated enough shouldn’t have had a vote, you might of avoided it (lucky for you) but trust me, it happened.

Exactly - "straw man" my arse.

I actually think there was a lot of doublethink from the remain camp which helped to lose the argument - for instance there was one poster on this forum who seemed to think the best way to stick it to a fascistic political establishment was to vote in support of it, and that not voting in support of a quote "fascist" political establishment makes you, somehow, fascist.

This is EXACTLY the sort of thing that a lifetime developing a bullshit detector enables older people to spot instantly, and life on the breadline does too.

On the other hand a short job-free life and humanities degree will not train you to do this at all, indeed it may be your stock in trade in certain fields.

Might not be a coincidence. Either way, Remain failed to make a compelling case - for all its superior intellectual and moral stance formulating good arguments and putting them well fell by the wayside, replaced by scaremongering, accusations of racism and an insufferable arrogant/dismissive attitude. I'm not surprised people responded poorly to that, anyone with any understanding of people and life would expect them to.

There's a really good example of this attitude in an old episode of question time where a woman expresses the anguish of some people in her local community (Boston, Lincs If I remember correctly) and the panellists essentially respond with none of what you say matters and none of what you experience is real, trust me I'm your better now sit down and shut up.

It really encapsulates for me the attitude that lost the country the remain victory. There were reasons for voting Remain but the arguments were just not made, and the attitudes on display to this day are a continuation of the same thing, as if people have learnt nothing.

UneMoonit it was Mary Beard. She pulled out a piece of paper and basically told the women here experience was wrong

I remember it well

Since the finance crash, then the MP’s expenses scandal along with this attitude (if you listen to radio phone ins you would have heard over and over again how people were being undercut with wages) the divide of them an us became wider.

The only countries who benefit from the EU are Germany and France.

This is an interesting documentary by Katya Adler from 2017 about the negative side of the EU.

All the leavers have ignored every mention of Northern Ireland on this thread. Just like Brexiteer-politicians.

Tony Benn did a speech on why he is anti-Europe.

Double think indeed when socialists are promoting Europe as something wonderful and necessary. It’s a Tory wet dream, make no mistake

I voted Leave one of the reasons was I didn’t want a European army.

"all the steel production in Europe used to be in the uk, it is now in Germany. "

The UK firms did not shut and move to Germany. The UK closed steel plants in many areas when it was British Steel. Industry recieved very little support in the period of 1979-1997. This was a Conservative economic policy. There was no EU ruling that the steel production had to move to Germany.

"One of the reasons I voted leave was because I'm hoping for a more global economy and more global movement. Possibly naive but my thoughts were from a good place. When in the eu, the freedom of movement from the eu means that we have to limit the numbers from other parts of the world"

Which just goes to show that the leave vote is made up of people with pie in the sky expectations based on their own wants.

It was a panacea for all different groups, none of you will get what you voted for.

"I voted Leave one of the reasons was I didn’t want a European army."

Thick.

"It really encapsulates for me the attitude that lost the country the remain victory."

No, the leave campaign just pandered to people's prejudices and told them they were right.

Even when they are actually wrong.

Boston, Lincs is always brought up as an example.

But if you know Boston, and its council, you will know that the "concerns" about immigration were there back in the 1990s, with the same reasons or "anguish" trotted out when the immigrant population of the town was about 1% ( its now 10).

The same "concerns" were trotted out about the Windrush generation too.

Its funny that isn't it?

Thing is that it's a bit of a generalisation to say that the Tories love the EU because it has been nothing but a bone of contention within the party for numerous years (within its various guises). There are a significant amount of eurosceptics in the Tory Party.

Maybe thick but history tells us you can’t trust the Germans or the French. I didn’t fancy Junckers vision of a European super state with an army to match. Call me what you like but it’s working class boys and girls who go and fight in illegal wars all over the world thanks to the likes of very well and expensively educated Tony Blair. Never the elite’s kids is it who come back wounded and maimed, missing limbs and unable to get a roof over their head. Sneer away ....

All the leavers have ignored every mention of Northern Ireland on this thread. Just like Brexiteer-politicians.

You must know by now that Brexiteers on MN don't want to actually debate Brexit. They simply want to post meaningless slogans (often lies) without being questioned or they want to talk about how Remainers are nasty to them or to blame for everything.

Time and time again posters ask Brexitteers about Brexit issues - na da, nothing, zilch.

Macron has been supported by Merkel on his idea of European Intevention Force

This has been floating around for sometime

Interestingly France is bringing back national service Macron originally wanted this to include military service

I’m not so sure an EU army or an Intevention Force is out of the question

Helmet - The OP set the tone of this thread and some remainers have run with their version of 'leavers' and how our ideas are 'thick'. I have give some of my reasons for voting leave and several others have agreed with me. We were not asked about northern Ireland but about our views on how remainers have treated us. As far as Northern Ireland is concerned however my opinion is that we should get a free trade deal so the whole hard border problem is not relevant.

The thing is that it's almost or perhaps is two separate issues at play - people's dislike of the EU and how we actually leave it. A lot of people on here don't like the EU - fair enough - most people would admit that it's far from perfect. How we leave is a massive bone of contention. I'm not sure that even the most fervent brexiteer knows exactly what the best strategy is for brexit and that's why I have a hunch that a 'no deal' is preferable as it is on paper the simplest way of getting out. Noone can really say for sure whether we will be better of financially or in terms of quality of life after brexit and that's the main reason why I didn't and still don't want to leave because I worry about whether this is a brexit for the few or the many.

I should say that I think that a 'no deal' is preferable for the fervent Brexiteers, not that I think that it is a good idea.

All the leavers have ignored every mention of Northern Ireland on this thread. Just like Brexiteer-politicians.

Let’s not forget the Government who saw fit to spend £9m of tax payers money on a Pro EU leaflet that didn’t even mention Northern Ireland. But no lets just blame Brexiteer politicians

topcat1980 Wed 18-Jul-18 10:58:02
"I voted Leave one of the reasons was I didn’t want a European army."

Thick.

And you are arrogant.